Kenpo for the Cage

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by dbmasters, Apr 16, 2006.

  1. dbmasters

    dbmasters Valued Member

  2. MaxG

    MaxG Valued Member

    You should watch the fights at A lot and I mean a lot of real fights go to the ground.

    I agree that women need to learn ground arts more than men. However it's untrue that women get raped on their backs more often than not. Most rapes (I can't remember the % since I read the report years and years ago) actually have the woman prone on her stomach and the rapist grabbing her hair and holding her head down.
  3. Satori81

    Satori81 Never Forget...

    Source? Please don't say "Real Life Experience"... :p
  4. RussianKenpo05

    RussianKenpo05 Valued Member

    kenpo origins

    what many people here seem to be missing, not to be condescending or anything, but kenpo originally was a blend of what it is now and jujitsu and the like, and has only recently been watered down to straight striking. For example, with the Castro lineage, even in the first two katas there are approximately three or four techniques that have been watered down to strikes, but were originally a strike followed by a lock and takedown...(i know this as we were practicing them in class last night,lol).
    all the best,
  5. Colin Linz

    Colin Linz Valued Member

    As you all know, I have very little knowledge of American forms of kenpo/kempo. I do find it surprising that you would need to go outside of your art to learn how to deal with grappling attacks though. From A Shorinji Kempo viewpoint I don’t see this need, the entire Juho syllabus is designed for that very reason. While there are some attacking Juho techniques most are counters to grappling attacks and include techniques to allow you control of your body when attacked, escapes from grabs, apply locks, throws, chokes and arresting or pinning techniques. Being a Japanese art, the techniques are very much designed to work against grappling techniques like Judo or jujutsu. To give you an idea of its range, I have a set of three instructional books on Shorinji Kempo, one is all Goho (striking and blocking) the other two are all Juho and by no means the entire syllabus.

    I will admit to enjoying groundwork as a form of exercise and interest though and have found that many of the principles behind our techniques work in this environment too. Even though we don’t have these techniques in our syllabus I’m still doing Shorinji Kempo, as they are built from my knowledge of the principles of Shorinji Kempo; it is all just part of the shu ha ri process of learning. I think MMA biggest benefit is not technical but methodology of training; the use of a resisting opponent is a very good tool, and has worked well in other arts like boxing or Judo. I just think it is a bit of a fashion statement within martial arts at the moment and that success in competition is not really a measurement of how well someone can defend themselves, or of a martial arts worth.

    You mention creativity. I think this could align with the Japanese concept of Shu Ha Ri and is considered a natural part of your development when learning anything. It is certainly a natural part of your development in Shorinji Kempo.
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2006
  6. kempojosh

    kempojosh Valued Member

    the tactics that you use to defend yourself are only dirty if they were used on you first:)
  7. Colin Linz

    Colin Linz Valued Member

    This is second hand mind you. One of the other guys (my apologies I can’t remember who) here mentioned in a post that he was involved with law enforcement, and quoted FBI statistics that indicated most fights don’t go to the ground. Apart from my School yard days this rings true with my experience.

    I know nothing about rape stats though. It would be reasonable to think that a woman may find some advantage in ground fighting in this scenario, but because of the size weight disadvantage I would think that she would be more advantaged in knowing how not to get in that situation.
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2006
  8. Colin Linz

    Colin Linz Valued Member

    No such thing in self defence. Everything is fair.
  9. MaxG

    MaxG Valued Member

    Like I said I read the article years ago. But I suggest you go talk to your local women's rape crisis center.

    Don't get me wrong. I don't believe the Gracie hype either about 90% of all fights going to the ground. That statistic seems a little high. However that site shows a lot of real fights. And darned if a lot and I mean A LOT of fights went to the ground.

    No doubt. What's the saying? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure? Or something like that.

    Not getting in that situation is great but not training in something that has been proven to be essential seems a little ridiculous in this day and age of martial arts. A ground defense is essential. Period.
  10. dbmasters

    dbmasters Valued Member

    Yeah, I remember that conversation actually, and I also train with police officers that say the exact opposite, so, well, like everything, it's a wash...
  11. Colin Linz

    Colin Linz Valued Member

    I think the thing that changes is the circumstances of the fight. If you are trying to control someone it might be that the fight will go to the ground. Most of our techniques end with a pin on the ground because we value control over damage. If on the other hand your only thoughts are self-defence the dynamics of the fight may change and you will be more inclined to incapacitate the attacker in the fastest and most brutal manner you can and get out of harms way. At this stage there are no thoughts of fairness or legalities, just survival.
  12. Colin Linz

    Colin Linz Valued Member

    True, but there are other methods of defending yourself from ground attacks than rolling around on the ground with them, some of these might be more useful when strength and body weight are factored into the equation. More important IMO is the skill to escape and get to my feet quickly rather than stay down and fight. I would much rather have the option to run away than risk all in a life or death situation.
  13. dbmasters

    dbmasters Valued Member

    Just out of curiousity, have you ever rolled with somebody and tried to get to your feet? Regardless of art or technique, you had better be damn fast! That's not an easy thing to do all the time, the much more possible technique is to incapacitate them while on the ground. If you wanna get to your feet during a grapple you gotta know some good ground work.

    Of course, like anything it varies from sitch to sitch.

    Wow, that's not the Kenpo I am learning, my system is more of a "strike first, strike hard, strike often" type of thing with a sprinkling of "yeah, break a bone, what the hell" thrown on top...
  14. Colin Linz

    Colin Linz Valued Member

    I think the Kempo taught in America is vastly different to that of Japan. There does seem some similarities though. Our striking is relaxed and flowing, valuing targets that are naturally weak. In general our blocks do not meet force with force, but work on redirection and are of secondary importance to dodging out of the way. Our Juho is more along the lines of some of the old Koryu jujutsu styles, it is sometimes described as looking like Aikido but not as soft, not a good description but may give you some mental image.

    Our ukemi practice not only incorporates falls, but rolls out from falls, how to land on your feet when thrown and methods of getting up quickly once you are down. While groundwork training could be of some value I’m fairly happy with the range that we cover now (most of our Juho syllabus is directed at fighting grapplers) and feel that it is effective enough in a free situation. To be honest I am still trying to learn our syllabus, it is quite large (I’ve been trying to learn it since 1988 LOL), once I understand Shorinji Kempo I might start trying to understand other arts, at the moment the time spent cross training would be taken from learning Shorinji Kempo, this would not be of benefit to me.
  15. dbmasters

    dbmasters Valued Member

    The brand of Kenpo I am learning, which is a modified version of Connors lineage, is also smooth and flowing, not the choppy, rigid styles of many traditional martial arts. But it's also powerful and firm aiming for eyes, throat and groin. My instructor has modified it to incorporate more grappling and striking from other systems as well for a more well rounded art.

    Tonight I just got back from class, the late wednesday class is usually small, which is cool. I went toe to toe with a boxer/mma fighter hucking punches at me to help me practice my blocks, move into clinch and takedown. It was actually a very fun and interesting class. it's nice being able to take down somebody half my age :)
  16. James Kovacich

    James Kovacich RENEGADE

    Thats what I'm talking about. That leads to "funtional defending" a fighter at his own game. As long two fighters do not "understand" each others styles. Then they both have a 50% chance at victory.

    But when we can successfully defend against them we are able to literally stop their attack. And when we take them "out of their game and into our game" we have them at a disadvantage and our odds for victory greatly increase.

    If we "understand" our attackers "game" we have a much better chance of being successful with our primary art. Last nights training took you in a good direction. It dosen't mean that you'll be a great boxer or grappler. But it does mean that (with continued training in that fashion) you will know how to at least "deal" with a boxer or grappler from "their perspctive" which is invaluable.
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2006
  17. kempojosh

    kempojosh Valued Member

    damaging a person would be the best form of control. am i correct? ;)
  18. dbmasters

    dbmasters Valued Member

    Exactly, that's why some of our Kenpo classes have JuiJitsu students sticking around to roll, and why Kenpo students take Kickboxing and vice versa. If you really want to be successful, you gotta be able to read the opponent, not just know what you can do, but he is likely to do.

    Besides, it keeps classes fresh and fun to change it up and get outside the box too.
  19. Colin Linz

    Colin Linz Valued Member

    I wouldn’t like to damage someone; it would be much better to just control them. Unfortunately some of our techniques can be damaging when done badly or carelessly. The greater the personal risk, the greater the stress there is and the more chance that a lock, throw or pin will be done poorly. Our throws use a combination of joint locking and balance to work, if the balance isn’t taken properly there is excessive force on the joints. I am still working on heijo shin, when I have this I will be better at applying techniques is a safe manner.
  20. dbmasters

    dbmasters Valued Member

    Wow, there are some big differences between our systems, my system causes serious injury when the techniques are executed properly. if somebody is trying to hurt me, I fully intend to hurt them worse. This is self defense, the surest means of self defense, if escape is not an option, is to render them incapacitated. If myself or my family is being assaulted I will attempt to do my part to make DAMN SURE the assailant thinks twice about trying it again on anyone else.

    If I do my techniques improperly I will only bruise a person or hyperextend a joint, if it's done properly they will have a broken joint, be temporarily blinded, have a crushed windpipe or be passed out.

Share This Page