I thought this perhaps was of interest. Some free sparing kenjutsu with blunt steel. http://www.wklok.com/mylife/2008_06_jap_taikai/Page2.html Bottom of the page.
Coolness. I would love to suit up and spar those guys. They seemed to move more like Kendoka (more linear, hanging around in Chudan, etc) than Kenjutsuka (is that what they're called?) that I've seen. At any rate, that's the stuff I'm interested in testing myself against. Suit up and have at it with steel, only allowing throws and stuff. Nothing handles or feels like steel. Working/sparring with shinai or wasters/bokken isn't the same at all. Aluminum isn't bad, but it's still lacking. Best regards, -Mark
Yes I thought the same as you, very linear, a bit kendo like. I don’t know how traditional this is or what kind of rules this is but it seems like it is controlled by a Toyama ryu exponent. Here is the thread over at e-budo that I stole this from. Read for yourself. http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40880
Toyama Ryu is mostly an art that focuses on drawing (depending on the organisations, some have more paired work than others) so I suppose that those who have a kendo background would tend to fall on it. That said I too find that they are very linear and might be improving their equipment a bit (although when you look at Nen ryu...). Other ryu are participating in such event I heard, might be fun to see how they do.
Yes it certainly would be fun to watch. An interesting idea. There will be certain ryu who will never participate in this, because of the sensei or the rules of the tradition. Maybe thats why I have mixed feelings about this. I feel you must be way up in the tradition to participate in this kind of events.
Just read the original thread. Here are the rules as posted by Sang Kim: That rocks. I would so be up for that. Hats off to the participants. Best regards, -Mark
I would love to have a go at that BUT I think those guys lost too many principles. Missing with a cut and the point hitting the floor is pretty bad. I would like to see really high grade kendoka performing. regards koyo
If they are Kendoka, then being used to controlling Shinai might have something to do with it. It's the same thing with padded weapons... it's easy to hit the ground with adrenaline dump since they're so clunky. I don't have that problem with steel though, since I train almost exclusively with it. Basically, if you don't do a lot of work with steel, you won't know how to handle it when the time comes. And they should be quality steel weapons. I credit a lot of my progress over the past six months to my Albion Liechtenauer. For those interested in learning control with steel, get a pell. In addition to practicing full power strikes, practice NOT hitting the pell, but getting as close as possible. If you end up tapping it unintentionally about 1 or 2 times in 10, then you're pushing things about the right amount. Best regards, -Mark
Hmmm, It looks like early days for them. They've still got a long way to go on the armour front. The WMA guys are ahead of them there. Once they fix that it will open up more avenues for varied attacks. Things I noted: 1. VERY linear, entries were not great (surprising for JSA) 2. They used second intention, something most people in WMA could learn from. 3. Their sword control was low. I suspect they are training with different weapons and bouting with these. BAD IDEA. 4. Footwork was ropey. 5. Attacks weren't committed enough. Overall, better than most WMA steel groups I've seen but not as good as some. The way they were entering they wouldn't last long against a good longsword fighter. Wide open to thrusts and zwertch. Oberloffen galore at those low guards. Shielhau at those middle guards. The first time they met it would certainly be entertaining. I'll fight if anyone fancies paying my ticket . Absolutely agree, cheap swords are more trouble than they are worth. I have an Armour Class sword and I use it constantly and there is virtually no blade damage whatsoever. We have club hanwei's and they are in not the best condition. The Bear.
I had the pleasure of sparring one rather experienced Kendoka (10 years) who had trained in Japan. He had no answer to the Zwerch (he tried to bind my strong, but my blade pivoted around and hit him anyway), the Schielhau freaked him out (OMG, what happened to my Chudan?), and pulling into Ochs stopped him dead in his tracks when he advanced. Even my offline enrty gave him trouble even with a normal oberhau, since he'd not close his line far enough to not get hit in single time. And even a simple shove to the hands when in a close bind worked great. Now it wasn't completely one-sided. He certainly got some nice hits in. But the truth is, I had been doing longsword for a little over two years compared to his ten. He thought he'd walk all over me, but I ended up scoring 60% of the hits, give or take and I was using a shinai with no crossguard. To be fair, Kendo doesn't teach "real" swordsmanship. It isn't supposed to. It won't prepare you to deal with a trained swordsman who fights dirty and comes hell-bent for leather, ready to cut you or throw you on your ass with no regard for rules. The kendoka in the video however, are making great strides towards that goal. One of them even threw in a kick from the bind to the thigh of his opponent. Talhoffer would have been proud. I for one, laud the EMA sword guys who are pushing the envelope in an inherently conservative learning environment. Best regards, -Mark
Let's just remeber that like most youtube sparring videos, we have no idea of the degree of skill of the opponents. Also their type of protection restricts many things, no trust in openings (seem to be many) and no hit in the back. I agree with you for kendo. But like I said they are Toyama ryu practitionners, not really kendoka. They are supposed to use TR techniques, but it's sure that someone practicing kendo as well would tend to use it. Toyama ryu is an art developped before WW2 to teach officers to correctly draw and use their swords during combat. Some organizations have paired kata, but some only practice drawing. And they actually do train with steel swords. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNLLtME0vRQ"]Swordfest 2007 Nakamura Ryu Battodo pt 1 - YouTube[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sAyrQbuZjU"]Toyama Ryu Iaido - YouTube[/ame] That said they do have specific kata for this type of training, no idea what it looks like. Well they are not really pushing it that much, it was practiced before kendo(since when exactly, no idea) and was, as I understand, preserved in a certain way by Hataya sensei of Toyama ryu.
The way I see it, it looks too much of a sport. I am sure it is not the point, but for me it looks like it. In my training it is very important to take care of the tradition, stay true to the history of the tradition. Like why are some techniques that I learn like that or that, ah, because of the helmet the warrior used, I see. My gaol is not to beat some one in a competition, but to get good at the tradition I practice, with the instruction I get. Mr. Sang Kim says that it is not weighted as much as the traditional practice. But I know myself enough that if I had the chance to do something like that, it would be addictive for me. I would not be able to stop. And I would then be afraid that such a thing would corrupt my mind and corrupt my training. But damn it looks fun. The competitive I get goosebumps just looking at it. What adrenalin. I want to win! Almost like paintball.
I'm not particularly competitive by nature. I like to get as good as I can, but my goal is the reconstruction of the Art itself. Historically, people would test themselves against each other in "sporting" combat, even if they were professional warriors. It was considered an important part of training. You can' really know if your stuff works unless someone's trying their own stuff at the same time to thwart you. Even resisting kata aren't enough... combat is by nature chaotic, and if you haven't been thrown into the deep end of the pool, you'll never really know. There certainly is a temptation to optimize the Art for sport. I think the key is to remember that the competition is still just a learning tool, since you're not actually you know, killing anyone. As long as you approach it from that perspective, you're not likely to lose sight of the goal. Best regards, -Mark
Agreed Mark. It's all in the approach. I'm seeing a tendency in Longsword to move toward tippy tappy point scoring at the moment and it's a trend I violently oppose. The Bear.
I like your goal. You want to reconstruct your art, being true too it. But my art does not need reconstruction. It has developed through centuries. It is a sturdy peace of construction. It is a living tradition and by playing games it will be destroyed. The way i see it. A kata is more true than “oh guys I must bend out my sword, lets have a pause.” What kind of mindset does that create? When your sword got bend, it will be a disadvantage for you and an advantage for your opponent. Continue until one of you have made the “killing” blow. All you end up with is being good at a game. And the professional warriors in the time when a warrior was a warrior, either they did ”sporting” events or not, that was up to them. Hell they could do whatever they wanted, they knew what they where doing. And if “sporting” helped them in the field, then two thumbs up for them. But wee are not professional warriors. So why kid ourself. The way I see it, JSA and WMA is two different beast (to some degree anyway), and reconstructing an art with good written documentation with guidelines from old masters that is dead from a long time ago I see no problem with. Sounds like you have a healthy and true goal. And it sounds like you folks approach that goal without making it a sport but maintaining the martial aspect from the time it was used. Sounds very interesting and I am glad someone does it. It is an important tradition to take care of. When that said, I must say that there are some ryu out there that do sparing, to some degree.
Stupid crap. First off, never, ever use steel for sparring.You can get seriously injured and you don't do techniques properly (out of fear of hurting your training partner). If you want to spar with weapons use wood but even better is bamboo or padded leather. This teaches you to attack with intent and actually hurt your opponent. (practice forms with steel of course) Second, daisho are sidearms. In unarmed combat against weapons you either run or don't get cut. In order to do the latter you need good distance and strikes to hands/wrists. The video displayed that they had no understanding of how to effectively cut with steel and how to avoid being cut. Unarmored there is no margin for error, even a small cut could end it for you. Third, slashing weapons are not designed to cut through heavy armor. For leather it's fine but once you get into chainmail you need to start using crushing (axe), bludgeon (cudgel, hammer, warhammer) or piercing/stabbing weapons (spear, warhammer). Even then heavy armor is designed to ward off these attacks so you need to grapple your opponent to the ground and use either an armor piercing dagger or helmet crusher. In summery, sword is a last resort in armored combat and your better off picking up somebody elses spear. Sword in unarmored requires distance and cuts that have a relatively low margin for error. What they were doing in that video was crap. Gunnery was interesting though, just goes to show how far we've come.
First off, always ALWAYS use steel whenever possible. There simply is no substitute. If you can, use enough protective equipment to spar with steel as realistically as possible. Bamboo and other simulators are sub-optimal, since they do not behave as steel does. My personal opinion is to spar with as many quality simulators as possible. If you are learning to fight with swords, then your training must prepare you for it. The fear one feels in facing a blunt steel weapon is an important part of training. Supplementing steel with padded and other simulators helps, but steel really is the be all end all. If you can't handle steel in a chaotic environment can you really call your self a swordsman? Best regards, -Mark
Interesting reply Marnet, but you don't say upon what you base all of your opinions. Personally, I think I would be inclined to listen more to Hataya Mitsuo sensei, 9th dan and acting kaicho of Zen Nihon Battodo Renmei, 9th dan and kaicho of Zen Nihon Toyama Ryu Iaido renmei, he also studies Doshinei ryu naginatado and Takeda ryu yabusame. He's the one acting as referee in that match, and the particiapants are students of his. If you google his name, I'm sure there will be plenty on the web about him. Unless you have the credentials to refute Hataya Mitsuo's opinions, then I think I'll side with him on this.
