Kenjutsu and Jujutsu

Discussion in 'Koryu Bujutsu' started by boards, Sep 6, 2013.

  1. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Training in more than one koryu can be a bit of a big deal and there are ways of going about it but you'll often come across koryu budoka who have also trained in Judo, Kendo etc or even Sumo back in the day.
  2. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    He's not a bad fella ;)

    He also corrected me (shall we say) on Wado-ryu Idori - showing me the "original" Tenjin Shinyo-ryu versions and - blige did they hurt...

    So, that was very nice of him.... ;)

  3. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Dean, just to be clear - I wasn't promoting doing mulitiple koryu.

    There are some really weird folk out there that can (someone that we know.. ie TSR, SSR, AR (and then Judo, Karate...)).

    But most of us mere mortals have not a hope :)

  4. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    No Gary I know.

    Sorry that was more for Pieman.

    Two is bad enough trust me and I'm not training much due to my knees. :D
  5. Pieman

    Pieman Valued Member

    - I certainly can see there is lots to learn and the history surrounding this area is extremely interesting, think I am going to be on the look out for books on the subject (recommendations most welcome:))

    Would you recommend this sort of art to a MA noob (less to unlearn perhaps?) or would you say learning something else first i.e. come into once you have gained appreciation and skill level in other art before you go near this, would be good idea?

    I guess any sort of cross training is best done once you have a good grounding in one area (something for another post I think).
  6. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Cop out answer I know, but it depends on what you learn first!?

    If I am being honest, I think it helped me having a grounding in Japanese karate before I started (whether my instructor thought that is another thing ;) ), but also, I think there is something to be said about walking into the dojo with an empty cup!

    It's about studying and doing your best to internalise. As long as you do this most instructors will do their best to help you out.

  7. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Koryu Bujutsu, Sword & Spirit, Keiko Shokon Diane Skoss. <- Nice general intro into Koryu and various ryu-ha, it also has some very good articles.

    Classical Budo, Classical Bujutsu, Modern Bujutsu & Budo Donn Draeger

    Old School - Essays on Martial Traditions Ellis Amdur

    Persimmon Wind by Dave Lowry

    In The Dojo - A Guide to the Rituals and Etiquette of the Japanese Martial Arts Dave Lowry

    Classical Fighting Arts of Japan : A Complete Guide to Koryu Jujutsu by Serge Mol

    Legacies of the Sword by Karl Friday. <- This is bloody brilliant.

    Japanese Swordsmanship Gordon Warner and Donn Draeger

    You can check out too, they have a good articles section.
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2013
  8. Count Duckula

    Count Duckula Valued Member

    The count approves of this post!
  9. Pieman

    Pieman Valued Member

    Legacies of the Sword by Karl Friday this is now on my shopping list to get me started, I have been reading on part 3 of article by Guy Buyens right now :hat:
  10. Count Duckula

    Count Duckula Valued Member

    I've seen video footage of yagyu shingan ryu jujutsu embu, where a number of those 'piledriver' throws were demonstrated. The throws were initiated, but at the 'point of no return', uke was lowered back to the ground instead of driven into the ground.

    It stands to reason that you can only complete those throws very gently, in slow motion. Either that or abort them in a controlled manner, as was done in that embu.
  11. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Legacies focuses on Kashima Shin ryu but Dr Friday uses it as a case study to look at koryu as a whole.
  12. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    There is a clip out there with them doing it with a fair but of umph, uke has to almost do a handspring at the last moment to save his neck.
  13. pgsmith

    pgsmith Valued dismemberer

    Gotta throw in my two cent's worth on this one as it's something that most people who are unfamiliar with the koryu do not understand.
    The idea of the koryu is NOT to preserve the teaching as it was before. The idea is to preserve the underlying tenets of the ryu. It is impossible for anything to be static and not change, and the koryu are no exception.

    To understand this, it is necessary to think about where the various ryuha came from. Several hundred years ago, these schools were political entities in their own right. Many were teachings from within a single clan. Others were put together from the teachings of several clans. All of them had their own agendas and ideas on how things should be done. I've always felt like they should be thought of more as a fraternity that happens to train in martial arts rather than just another martial arts school.

    Yep, we're just like a bunch of rather violent freemasons. :)
  14. boards

    boards Its all in the reflexes!

    Thanks Langenshwert :).
  15. Pieman

    Pieman Valued Member

    I was basing the assumption on what was written here

    More precisely - "my primary concern—and everything else is a distant second—is those arts and their successful transmission to the next generation. They are, to some extent, mine to take care of and to pass on. If you had inherited some antique or heirloom, or a similarly valuable object from the past, I would expect you to be circumspect in whom you passed it on to."

    But I like the violent freemasons idea a lot :D
  16. pgsmith

    pgsmith Valued dismemberer

    He's absolutely correct. However, many people that are unfamiliar with the koryu see something like that and assume that the koryu are static and unchanging. I've had any number of people ask me "how can you be sure that you're doing the kata exactly as they were a hundred years ago?" I'm pretty sure that I'm not, as the kata are fairly fluid and change subtly over time. However, I am pretty sure that the underlying ideas and movements that are being taught by the kata are the same as those that were originally incorporated, since the authority to pass on the teaching is not given until those underlying tenets are thoroughly understood.

    I just wanted to take the opportunity to point out that preserving the teaching and the ryu does not equal static and unchanging.
  17. Pieman

    Pieman Valued Member

    Thanks for pointing this out its all very interesting. I am now thinking more along the the lines it is the spirit, essence or the institution itself that is being preserved not the exact physical movements?
  18. OwlMAtt

    OwlMAtt Armed and Scrupulous

    OP, would I be correct in guessing the novel you're talking about is one of John Donohue's Connor Burke novels? If not, what is it (because I could use some more martial arts fiction)?
  19. boards

    boards Its all in the reflexes!

    Yes I was referring to the Connor Burke books. The only one I haven't read is Deshi, it seems to be out of print.

    Have you read Barry Eisler's John Rain series? I'm two books in and so far I has been great.
  20. ericspinelli

    ericspinelli New Member

    A number of sources indicate that the bujutsu of the Tosa domain included a number of ryu-ha ranging from kenjutsu to bo to yawara/jujutsu. Of what's left to us Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu iai is by far the most well known and practiced. Although it is unclear exactly how much Oe Masamichi intended to leave behind when he reorganized the MJER curriculum and what was only preserved through the actions of his contemporaries, modern MJER iai contains at least 6 sets of paired kata. While the first three of these focus mostly on iai and kenjutsu they do include a small amount of grappling included standing body control and full fledged throws. The following two sets, however, are exactly what you are asking about: they focus on armed grappling complete with wrist and elbow locks, strikes with both the hand and he sword pommel, and throws all with the goal of creating an opening to cut or thrust. I know the least about the final set, but do know that some of the kodachi techniques involve some open hand manipulation of the opponent, though mostly restraining his sword arm while thrusting with the kodachi.

    I do not know of any publically available videos of the last three sets that are worth watching and the techniques don't seem to be taught much outside of Japan (and rarely here at that) but they do exist.

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