Kendo and actual sword work

Personal attacks are, but there was no attack in that post.

Gunyo Kogusoko - could you explain why you think the post was ridiculous?

 

Well I would have to agree its one of the most rediculous posts I have seen.
It shows a total lack of understanding to even make comparisons between kiddys play and some classical form of budo with a history of 400 years.

The post is far more insulting than the response.

 

"Originally Posted by ivica
I will always bet on some chanbara practitioner versus koryu iaijutsu or koryu kenjutsu practitioner - should they decide to start any form of sparring..."

Ridiculous is as ridiculous does.

I don't mind hearing decent, well thought out discussions by people who are well versed in their arts, but this sort of an opinion from an academic who has never had any REAL exposure to koryu bujutsu (Maybe with the exception of the Nihon No Kobudo videos or someone who has dabbled in a bit of Muso Shinden-ryu) just makes for the perfect catalyst.

Sorry if I offended some, but I am just returning the favour.

 

Hyaku, you know me, I was being polite there.

 

I probably agree with you on this one, so it's not that what's it about.

It's about the fact that arguments such as "BWAHHHAHAHAHA", and "What you say is silly, becauce I'm such a well versed performer of the art X" doesn't help the rest of us a lot.

I could say that I find SCA scilly because I'm a MASTER of "Fior di battaglia", but that isn't very informative for the rest of you out there.

I prefere that people either explain their wiews or refrain from posting, because the "my father is stronger than your father"-arguments are just plain daft.

 

Indeed!

If you disagree with something said, please explain why you do instead of just saying "thats rubbish". See the Terms of Service quote above (post #21) too.

 

I have not been on this forum for a while. My father died, and I organized a seminar in kenjutsu and jujutsu. Gunyo Kogusoku, please attend ryote divission on next European Sport Chanbara Championship. Also, please give me one single proof where modern practitioners of koryu arts demonstrate any superriority in any form of sparring - including kendo, sport chanbara, sport kenjutsu, or anything similar. Hyaku, since you are in Japan, please visit the uppcoming World Championship and (if you are practicing any Japanese sword arts), please test yourself. Some of us in that "kiddy" play would surprise you very much. Including founder Tanabe sensei, who is from a samurai family and has all sorts of classical budo dan grades.

Once the Gracie brothers have made a public challenge: whoever comes to their BJJ club and defeats any of their instructors, will receive a huge money, etc. I might offer the same to koryu bujutsu practitioners - with proof that they will not use gendai techniques and have no gendai budo experience. Any koryu jujutsu against gendai jujutsu or judo, any koryu kenjutsu against kendo, any koryu kenjutsu against chanbara... Any sensei (soke or whatsoever) against any black belt of mine.

I wod NEVER make any claim like this one for any gendai practitioners. Judo, Karate-do, Kendo, BJJ - that's different story. But koryu...???

With all due respect to moderator and forum rules: koryu - give me a break!

 

You were flamed by many members on e-budo as an agenda troll, albeit a very eloquent one.

From the get go on this forum, you have basically pushed and pushed to have your K.I.A.I organisation noticed. Very admirable, but why trash other koryu, if you haven't had a single bit of tuition in it.

You never stated who you learned kenjutsu from, you have not stated what ryuha you studied and how long it took you to get "Menkyo Okudan"!

Am I wrong in suspecting that since you are the "Owner" of the Shinbukan dojo, you gave yourself these ranks; Godan in jujutsu and Godan in Kenjutsu?

If you are menkyo, from the picture you have on your website, you are trying to rip off Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu.

http://ivicaserbia.tripod.com/sensei.html (first picture)

And yet you are still bashing koryu while copying it?

BTW, you'll get your fingers chopped off if you keep holding your sword that way. That grip is for beginners so that they can learn how to do nigiri (grip) on a katana.

Regards,

 

I personally would have problem with all this "chanbara is the best" talk if the weapons were closer to real weapons in shape and weight.

And the only way to actaully make your offer that someone comes to theses tournaments and prove how good they are is if the weapons and "rules" were much closer to reality. ie no rel rules aside from dontkill the other guy and blunt steel. Inviting someone to "fight" under your rules willonly mean that people who train specifcally to "fight" under those rules will ahve a much greater edge even if in actaully combat will real weapons they wouldnt.
My understadning is that Gracie family keep their stuff pretty hardcore and that sport chanbara is padded weapon competition. Where I grew up foam weapons with little to no weight were only for children under 16.

 

Cudgel,

I was actually going to respond to the challenge, but decided that any response I gave was going to be complained about. You've hit the nail right on the head. My original reply was going to include something about not using foam based weapons.

Aegis,

Here's a bit of info on one of the individuals who graded ivica from e-budo. George Alexander & Niten Ichi-ryu


There was a reason why I just posted the photo.

 

Thats from being the SCA. People would look for loop holes in the rules tha encourage non realistic fighting techniques. And traing groups would change the rules when they trained.

 

Well It just so happens I have a Shidoin (Teachers) certificate and a Directors position in Chanbara. They asked me to teach/judge. I guess this was based on the grades/certificates I already have in Kendo/Iaido/Battojutsu etc. I keep it to show to friends as an excellent 'demai' certificate.

I also got an invitation form the world soke council some years ago. I would rather not discuss that. I liken that to the priest who tried to interfere with me in the movies some years ago.

Classical budo does not have dan grades. That came a lot later in reputable associations. But it looks like they give em away now in some groups like the free gift in a pack of cornfakes

I base my opinion on what I was told by people demonstrating this sport. It was described as an excellent way to get kids off the street and engage them in a friendly injury free activity. It is easy to do, relatively cheap compared with buying Kendo armour, no skills required etc. It has perhaps filled a small gap in Japanese activities. Bring your kids games into a gym and actually compete. At the time it seemed like a good idea to me. But mention such words as Samurai sports" and I quickly lose interest.

Do you understand Japanese. This is exactly what Tanabe says. He says due to the interest in Jidai geki (Japanese samurai dramas) numbers are increasing.

Up until then the word chanbara had been used to describe kids play much as Western kids imitate cowboys.

Now you want to connect all martial arts new and "very" old even a kids sport into a mish mash of "samurai ways" You are making out that chanbara is something its not.

Tanabe is from a samurai family? So are 99% of all Japanese why probaby had an ancestor fighting on the field. I have a certificate that says I have a Menkyo in the Shogun Hideyoshi's ryu. Does that make me the next shogun?

Here is an invite for "anyone", experience not required
http://www.internationalsportschanbara.net/instructor.html

But....... be careful. I may be me thats judging you at a competition if I have the time to fit it in. At the very least someone should educate you people as to the finer differences between Budo philosophy and foam stick fighting and that kenjutsu people "Don't spar" and try to preserve a tradition. Not massacre it into oblivion with some made up stuff.

I watched the videos including the mediocre batto techniques on ladies size makiwara. What can I say? Its "Chanbara" Men wearing black belts hitting each other the way we used to do when we were kids. Understanding distance and thrashing the hell out of each other with zero kanhanshin is not a "weapon art". You give "us" a break!

 

taken from the link with emphasis added by me.
"The desired quality of an instructor is NOT the excellence in techniques."

I would think that excellence in technique would be the MOST important quality.

"We welcome those who are happy to join us in promoting Sports Chanbara as a life-long recreational sports."

It seems the guys in charge of sport chanbara know its just a game. Do YOU know its jsut a game?

 

Ah, the eternal problem; how to become a good fighter?

A Full contact sparring with padded weapons and protection...
B Katas, focus on perfecting sparring with air as the opponent...

Neither will ever be the full answer, and actually; when it comes to swordfighting, the first to go lucky wins, no matter what he did in the Dojo

My teacher (in Reenactment/WMA) sais that he usually win tournaments, because he analyses the securityrules and expolit them (If no head hits are allowed, he'll stick out the head, etc.) That's (as Cudgel mentions from the SCA) why full contact sparring is no guarantee that you'll kick ass in a real fight.

Neither is Katas. I met an Escreemaguy only practicing longsword for 4 days at a seminar that my teacher held. The dedication he was taught in Escreema, the intensity mixed with a longsword was more than enough for him to totally mow me down. I'd done (longswrod)katas for allmost 2 years by then.That was an eyeopener for me.

So what can I say? I'll definetly pick up "kids foamed swords" from time to time if that makes me able to go full contact towards the face etc. But I'll never base my training on waggeling foamed sticks at an opponent. It's a supplement -at best -If you want to learn swordplay as a Martial ART

THERE'S (imho) ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH SWORDFIGHTING AS A SPORT, ONE MUST JUST KNOW THE DISTINCTION!

 

Funny you should mention that as I teach a lot in the Philippines. A lot of my students also teach/practice escrima. I have a very high regard for them and would not like to put odds against them winning some kind of competiton that involved a little free expression.

I think the whole point that is missed by many is they mix classical budo with fencing/sparring/self defence whatever. The samurai class died out many years ago and so did the fuedal wars. It simply exists today as a self enlightening, educational method that teaches us the possiblities and the horrors that one can inflict with the weapons of that day, and to put down our weapons, not pick them up. Even Kendo has the opposite stance and tells us to "pick up a sword" and learn. Nowadays everything be it self defence, MA gets tarred with the same brush. Even this very forum has subject titles that lead people to think that its all the same.

Kobudo tells us to learn the heart and only pick up weapons if our family or country in threatened. One could even say that the present Japanese governments stance on defence reflects the old budo ways.

This distinction should be made before we even consider taking about this subject and making comparisons. Kenjutsu/Kendo and all the rest have a very subtle philosophy. If a lot a people understood this they would not post making so many "If this" and "If that", "This against that" comparisons. With a bit of actual reasearch even the "Who would win" threads might appear less frequently.

Not all of us go to the dojo just to beat hell out of each other. We sit down in front of Soke and whiteboard after each session or are told to go home and read certain things.

 

That's the way I was taught when I lived in Japan full-time too. I even spent some time learning polishing under one of my sensei who was a token togishi by trade.

 

From his site,

So, we have someone who is in Serbia, getting a rank from an American orginization in Japanese martial arts. Funny!!!!

 

Heh heh heh, there it is.

 

In modern (olympic) fencing, there are 3 weapons. The target area is:
1) foil: just the torso
2) sabre: the entire upper body. And on the occasions I've fenced sabre, I've had a couple of attacks whipped across my fingers, which still hurts even with a glove on. You can normally stop attacks to the hand using the guard of the sabre though.
3) epée: the entire body. Which I fenced 1991 - 2003. You drill to hit the parts of the opponent's body nearest to you, generally the forearm. If the attacker tries a high thrust, you generally pronate and make an upward stop hit to their hand or wrist. The large guard on the epée negates most direct attacks to the hand and wrist though - you have to wait for an opening.