Kendo and actual sword work

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by TheCount, May 12, 2005.

  1. TheCount

    TheCount Happiness is a mindset

    How applicable is kendo with actual sword work? I only ask because its the art of japanese fencing. In english fencing you could pick up a real sharpened sabre and be most of the way to being an effective user of it, thing is a shinai is rounded and has no specific edge as such and is considerably lighter than a full katana so realisitically how applicable is kendo practice and sparring to real sword work?
     
  2. Capt Ann

    Capt Ann Valued Member

    Good question! Prepare for debate on this one.

    Kendo will help with speed, agility, timing, and footwork. You also will practice with several legitimate target areas: hands/wrist (which most western fencing arts ignore, if I'm not mistaken), head, torso, and in advanced matches, jabs strikes to throat.

    You are correct that the bamboo shinai is much (much!) lighter than a real sword. The strokes in kendo are also distinctly different than the slices with a katana. Kendo scoring strikes use almost a casting motion, with a snap/push forward--it is more of a hit than a cut. Real Japanese sword work uses a full arm, upper body slice with some hip action, and a hitting motion may just bounce off a target. Also, real sword fights would include whole arms and legs as legitimate target areas, something precluded in kendo.

    It is a mixed bag: some things will help prepare for a real sword fight, but some things will hinder. This will be true (IMHO) in any sword art with sparring, since safety demands that you place some limits on what techniques are allowed.

    If you are interested in more reaslistic sword sparring, check out the web page for Realistic Sparring Weapons in Hong Kong (www.rsw.com.hk), and some HDGD schools that practice sparring.
     
  3. Shantari

    Shantari Valued Member

    i think, that kendo has turned in to more of a sport, but combined with Iaido, and/or Kenjuistu(sorry spelling :( ) you could have some good skills with actually handling a katana
     
  4. Capt Ann

    Capt Ann Valued Member

    Totally agree!!
     
  5. TheCount

    TheCount Happiness is a mindset

    Thing is Ive studied some Iaido and in Ninjutsu I will eventually be studying sword forms however as far as I know we dont do any actualy sparring. This is the main reason I want to do kendo so thatnks for the input
     
  6. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    I happen to have 3 students in my Italian Longsword-class that have been doing (and still do) Kendo-training, and it is very interresting!

    As I've understood from them they mostly train on positions, stance and moves (kata's isn't it?)

    What I've noticed that they pick up the techniques moves and stances very fast compared to other students, where I have to adjust their bladepaths and stanve repeatedly. What they were weaker in, was the more rude and cruel close-play-thins, where things tend to get very intimate...

    To say that you cannot fight because shinais are not of proper weight and propotion isn't very valid. If you do Kendo and worry that you might not be competent in a proper swordfight, I recomend you to start some freesparring on your sparetime where you train the aspects of timing and speed, and to be a complete figher, you allso start training some kind of wresteling as well.

    Kendo alone i a bit like learning only how to kick, I think.
     
  7. PangQuan

    PangQuan New Member

    Look at it like this.

    In kendo you use a kendo stick, a piece of split and tied bamboo. You strike left and then strike right, but on the right strike you will just swing your stick back to the right, you dont need to alter your body mechanics to rotate the blade 180 degrees to make sure you hit with an edge.

    In kenjutsu you do. Why? because you practice with bokken and actual blades. Kendo IS a sport, not to be confused with Kenjutsu, which is the practice of only combat oriented fencing. The body mechanics are totally different.

    Personally I dont like Kendo. Its like boxing with gloves vs fighting on the street with fists. Similar but not the same.
     
  8. Capt Ann

    Capt Ann Valued Member

    This could easily get into a 'style-vs-style' debate. Both arts (kendo and kenjutsu) have their place and purpose. Emphasis is very much different, but some aspects of each are applicable to the other. Neither provides a 'complete' combat art in and of itself. No weapons sparring will ever incorporate all the factors actually experienced in sword combat, just because of the nature of the art and the weapon.

    I agree with the general comment that kendo is more a modern sport fencing style, and kenjutsu is more applicable to live-blade cutting. Beyond that, too much depends on the individual school, student, and instructor. Our school teaches a mix of daehan kumdo (Korean kendo) and haedong kumdo (native Korean live-blade sword art), with a few borrowed elements of iaido thrown in.

    FYI: Shinai have definite blade and back sides, and strikes with the wrong side of the sword do not score in sport kendo.
     
  9. Shantari

    Shantari Valued Member

    yea yea, what he said, unless someone creates a VR program like the matrix where you could actually fight with weapons without risk of injury, you cannot burn an MA, simply because it is "too sporty", it depends on the school, and how they train
     
  10. Alexander

    Alexander Possibly insane.

    GENERALLY: Not very.

    Bear in mind that Kendo evolved as a safe way for Samurai to train. But the problem is over time a competitive nature evolved and tournaments were won, obviously, by point scoring. As a result the effectiveness of a cut no longer mattered - it simply became a manner of hitting your opponent quickly. The effect was that the sword stroke was shortened, but not 'economised' as the shortened technique does not really have the ability to slice through a resilient target.

    Real swordplay requires a lot of use of the hips, as Capt. Ann mentionned, that gives the weapon its cutting edge.

    I did a bit of Kendo but was not that impressed as I did not like its pure sport mentality (admittedly this was only one dojo so I own up to a sweeping generalisation).

    Now I study a traditional sword art that uses straw targets that are soaked in water for a week before you have the chance to cut them. As a result cutting is a lot harder and requires proper technique. This has impressed me far more than Kendo did as I can see that the Kendo strokes I was being taught simply would not cut the wet straw - just bounce off.

    Hope that helps,
    Alexander
     
  11. blessed_samurai

    blessed_samurai Valued Member

    Some of you guys are missing the very essence of Kendo completely=spirit. In competition, it does not matter if you are faster, the one with the most spirit wins the match. In fact, if you do not call your hit and make the hit, you do not get the point. It also takes a lot of stamina, endurance, and agility to be a competitive Kendo player. I would argue that a Kendo players' endurance, etc has to be greater than a lot of other competitive arts, if for no other reason, the amount of equipment you have to wear in competitions and class.

    Quite a few Kendo schools will also have classes in Iaido.

    Generally Kendo and actual cutting techniques (as have been mentioned) are not inclusive of each other, in other words, there's some but not a lot of carry over.
     
  12. TheCount

    TheCount Happiness is a mindset

    Samurai...not meaning to be offensive but saying a Kendoka has greater endurance than a studier of a traditional art is a bit skewed.

    Its like comparing a school kid to a strongman, the kid will carry his schoolbag and use his pencils but the strongman coud easily do farmers walks.

    I think the fact that the shinai is so light just makes it a bit skewed...compared to a kilo or two of sword its a whole different ball game
     
  13. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    But a hit that doesnt "count" in the sport can still kill if it were with a live blade.

    Kendo like sport fencing can be used to gain an understanding of how to use a weapon. Despite the weaons being lighter you still get the sense of timing and distance and possibly some concept of how to use your whole body in the strikes. In kendo, like everything in life, you get out of it what you put into it.
    If you only do kendo, or any other sportified combat art, as a sport you wont get as much martial benefit rom it as if you pursued it as martial art and used competions as a just another chance to train and not as the end all be alll of it.
     
  14. ivica

    ivica New Member

    On last European Sports Chanbara Championship held in Russia, the Grand Champion (and champion in disciplines of kodachi, choken free, choken ryote and nito) was young Benjamin sensei from France, a Kendo black belt. Kendo is definitelly a great preparation for any sword use. Shinai is not so light, I have several katana, and some are also very light. Bokken is not much better than shinai - I can tell that because I have kenjutsu rank too. I'd say if I would have to bet on some man surviving the modern street encounter against a few attackers with only a sword (shinken) in his hands, I would put my money on kendoka. Anyone who was watching carefully the All Japan Kendo Championships knows why I think this way.
     
  15. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    a shinai weighs around 400 to 500 grams or a pound. A katana will weigh from 2 to 3 and half pounds. there is big difference between one and two pounds. the sheather for my messer weighs a pound. It handls a lot differntly with the extra pound tacked onto it. And the difference bettwen my messer, 4 pounds and my shinai. two of which are weighted to be 2 pounds, is signicant.
    My bokken, when it still was in one peice was about 2 pounds also and it felt a lot differnt than a shinai.
    And unless the chanbara weapons weigh over a pounds im not too impressed. they have horrible aerodynamics too, being fat cylinders instead of blades.

    Sure a guy some kendo trainng would be better off witha sword than teh average street thug but then again the guy with some real weapons traing will have the edge over the guy with kendo training only.
     
  16. blessed_samurai

    blessed_samurai Valued Member

    Count, I'm not referring to the shinai when I refer to a Kendoka having greater endurance. I'm talking about actually suiting up and 'sparring.' A typical school (in my experience) will have the shiai last around 10 minutes and a competition shiai usually lasts anywhere from 5-8 minutes (typically). It takes a great deal of endurance to don on the bogu and 'spar' (in my book) than in a different traditional art setting of sparring.
     
  17. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    You havea point about that.
     
  18. ivica

    ivica New Member

    Shinai is not so light, standard is at around 660 grams. as for katana, it is not 2 or 3 pounds, I have couple of them, one has hardly 850 grams. There are many ancient swords which were in between karana and wakizashi, with toal lenght at around 85 cm.

    As for "aerodynamics", no one who has not tried chanbara on some national, continental or world championship should not speak about it. Shinai also has no "aerodynamics" and same goes for Kashima bokken, and many other training 'tools" of Japanese origin. I will always bet on some chanbara practitioner versus koryu iaijutsu or koryu kenjutsu practitioner - should they decide to start any form of sparring...
     
  19. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    Sorry, that last statement was just so damn ridiculous.
     
  20. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Moderators, where are you? I thought personal assaults were illegal? (Unless he meant that it was his own statement; the "BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"-thingie that was ridiculous; because it was.)
    You shouldn't reply on posts like that, no matter how much you disagree with them! :bang:
     

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