Kempo reformation?

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by KempoFist, Aug 19, 2007.

  1. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Alright, I'm curious as to people's thoughts. Most here already know my stances/opinions on training, Ke?po, and the like. What many don't know, is that I wasn't always so jaded and spiteful, and once aspired to amend my training, and perhaps one day run my own Kempo school. Unfortunately, the realization of serious flaws in my ability have squashed those dreams, at least for the time being. But right now a lighter (and curious) side of me has resurfaced, so I'd like to ask a few questions...

    Most of you regardless of whatever brand of Ken/mpo you train in have undoubtedly heard a few talking points over the course of your training..

    "Ken/mpo emphasizes adaptation"

    "We believe in taking what works and discarding what doesn't"

    "Ken/mpo is a true mixed martial art as we take the best from other arts and blend them into our own"

    You see the theme here, and if you haven't been brought up with this mentality then please feel free to correct me.

    Now here is what I propose; why do we not actually take those things to heart and actually adapt? If that is the core of our training, and was the ideal of the founders, why is it that we are still performing rote techniques today, the same way they were 40, 50, 60 years ago? Is it that the moves are that perfect and flawless that they no longer need to be refined, that to do so would be claiming that we in our ignorant ways are somehow more knowledgeable than those who came before us? Is that it? Jiu-Jitsu guys aren't the same as they were 50 years ago. Boxers aren't, MMA fighters definitely aren't. Is an art as young as Kenpo that ingenius, that we no longer need to look outside of the bubble and see if there's something that was missed?

    I recall from my own experiences, many techniques were often changed. Though I was told to make them "better" or "more efficient" in the end it seemed it was more to either water it down, or was in the name of petty internal politics. Arguing over whether to place your hand in chamber at hip height, or armpit height, isn't exactly making or breaking your style of training. :-/

    So my question is, outside of Speakman, and perhaps Trejo to a much lesser extent, where is the adaptation? Where is the thinking outside of the box? Why do we still in this day and age still see techniques that resemble someone trying to fight off a swarm of gnats? Why do we still see techniques that we know to fail time and time again because they are founded on untested theory?

    What the hell happened to the core of the art?
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2007
  2. Kenpo_Iz_Active

    Kenpo_Iz_Active Greek Warrior-not 300

    Oh so true. Kenpo is really, like you explained, a mix of almost all arts from all over the world. Kenpo has taken good, and some bad as well from those arts. i think some aspects of Kenpo need more revision, such as Katas, many of the techniques, and some of its ethics.
     
  3. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    what happened? Did this forum die while I was away or something?

    Exactly
     
  4. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    Most teachers don't have the knowledge to make it any better. And their students have even less. Lather-rinse-repeat for 30 years and here we are today.

    I think there are a very few guys here and there that have something much deeper to offer. Something based on a real foundation, not a handed-down tradition of bad-assery and tough-guyishness.

    People could shuffle techniques in and out all day but without a solid foundation that tells you WHY a particular technique is effective or not it's just deck chairs on the Titanic. And then how many people have the years of practical (real-life, outside of sporting) experience to know for sure?

    Also, there's just no money in it LOL

    I only know of one person, (maybe 2) who fits these criteria, and I try to learn from him whenever I can...
     
  5. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Very good points David, but man did that last line sting about there being money in it....how dare you crush my naive idealism with reality like that! :p
     
  6. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    That's actually really true. It's up to the student/instructor to start asking themselves the questions of why a technique would or wouldn't work. Sadly, unless someone is really into MMA, they are just going to live in the world of make believe where all your techniques magically work...the person attacking you is only going to half moon and punch in and not move after that...etc.

    The no money part isn't true though. You have a great opportunity to make money, you just have to know how to market what you teach.
     
  7. Kenpo_Iz_Active

    Kenpo_Iz_Active Greek Warrior-not 300

    Hmmm... .. ... what are you imposing?
     
  8. Raven001

    Raven001 New Member

    I did Tracy's Kenpo for a number of years and it is all the same moves Al & Jim Tracy learned from Ed Parker back in the 60's with no changes, except i think additions to katas but the moves themselves have not changed.
    I think some of Al's reasoning behind it is that everyone is different and certain moves will work for some and not others so they teach all the moves in their original format so people can see which ones suite them.
    I took a about a 3 year layoff from martial arts and recently started doing OJKD and with the alive training methods and scenarios i have learned more about defending myself in a real situation in 8 months than I have from several years of Kenpo :bang:
     
  9. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member


    They don't necessarily need to be into MMA, just something alive.
     
  10. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    I believe the point is, when you begin training in such a manner, the foundation, or bread n' butter if you will, of what you need to master is something very similar to modern MMA.

    A lot of people aren't ready to accept that, and cling onto Jackie Chan fantasies or RBSD wet dreams of that remind me of a combination of Seagal movies and the story of Ricky.
     
  11. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    That's exactly what I am saying. Thank you! Can I get an Amen or an Alleluia?
     
  12. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Well, you can adapt all you want, but the core principles stay the same. Sadly, I think a lot of times the principles are not understood or are ignored with many teachers when it comes to training.

    I see a lot of people that perform "text book" technique in a control environment such as a demonstration, but when it comes to applying the techniques in training they seem to, against their better judgment, ignore the principles. For example, one of the first principles is "do not get hit" and in conducting technique I've seen many that seem so caught up in going through the motion of a technique that they seem to be unaware of the first principle. Another is "strike through the target to stun or unbalance" but yet I see technique done in training that seems to contradict this principle.

    Often I think people get too caught up in the complexity of technique and forget to apply the simplicity of principles. IMHO.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2007
  13. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    good points RW
     
  14. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Thanks KF.

    You might know that one of the Professors I train under is Professor Baxter in Kajukenbo. You might also have been taught or seen some of the Grab Arts techniques. Basically a few years ago, Professor Baxter tells me to never give a "flat surface" for them to grab.

    Now some of the basic Grab Arts include defense verse lapel grab where you stand square-on to your partner and they grab you. What Professor Baxter was asking for was to get off the line of attack slightly and present more of a triangular posture that is more in line with the principle "do not get hit."

    The standing square on works in a "static" environment for learning purposes, but can fail horribly against someone who is bigger and stronger. The triangular posture getting off the line of attack works better in all cases.

    Well we teach the basic static version to start with, but when the technique is done full speed, against resistance, or in a more alive environment, the triangular posture (do not give them a "flat surface to grab") is applied.

    You won't see the second one in a text book, you have to come train with us to get it. I find this true with many techniques.

    So in conclusion, it isn't so much the techniques, but it comes down to the principles and how you train the techniques.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2007
  15. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    MMA is a step better than static dojo training, but is still pretty darn far from being a cop in a bad part of town or similar (real life experience). Watch the altercation from TUF last season in the backyard and compare that to security camera footage of real criminal assaults. How similar are they??


    I think the kind of examination & questioning you are talking about here is good, but far from sufficient. The holy grail is not "techniques that work", and what you are describing is only going to get you a good approximation of what works, limited by what your teacher started with... there is an enormous body of knowledge that no amount of examining techniques (that are not based on it) will reveal.

    I know a guy who teaches material that is far deeper than the hawaiian kempo offshoots that most of us in this thread study. It is rooted in anatomy and kinesthesiology (sp?), and also years of TMA under a well-known Sifu, and more years under Parker. The teacher is also a US Marshall now and a cop for 30+ years, with 1000s of arrests. His material is deep, layer after layer of information aroudn the most simple things.

    It requires a lot of time, a lot of study, and even more sweat and blood. for most people, this is much more than they have to give - they have lives, families, jobs etc. And really the Karate school or BJJ gym down the street probably will teach them well enough to defend themselves in situations that most suburban people will ever get into. So, it is only a smll percentage of people who want to do MA that will find this guys school to be what they want. For most people it is too hard and requires too much committment. (I spent a week visiting the guy, we got in 30 hours of mat time, I thought he was trying to kill me!)

    That is why I said there was no money in it. He could hire the best advertisers in the world to bring a dozen people a day into his school, but how many of them will want it once they get past the marketing that got their interest? How many who think they do, will stay?

    "It can't be the best if everyone is doing it" - Ed Parker
     
  16. RevIV

    RevIV Valued Member

    I think what you are proposing is what Chuck Liddell's teacher did. Took the Kempo he learned from Walter Godin and so on, deleted the Kata's and just went right into the fighting aspects.
    Jesse
     
  17. Jack_Brando

    Jack_Brando New Member

    if a style has worked on people along time ago, it will work on them now, unless there packing a rpg, then your in trouble.
     
  18. meijin10

    meijin10 Valued Member

    techniques

    It matters not how old or out dated a technique is, how it has been / will be applied is what really matters.
     
  19. shaolinmonkmark

    shaolinmonkmark Valued Member

    what my school teaches!!!

    At my location, yes we are taught the same forms/katas/DM's, BUT, we not only incorporate MMA/Thai boxing/Boxing, but also Israeli Hagannah as well!
    Now, i must admit, many years ago, when we started incorporating these arts in our system, i was like," Why?"
    I was humbled mighty quick, as we actually went over techniques and scenarios as to the attacker "Not just half-mooning and throwing a perfect punch, for you to do a magical technique".We worked on simple -motor skills, found in these other arts, to enable us to just "React, and attack/counter" vs. "Here's the magical Technique"!!!
    I think that All arts need to evolve, and understand that no-one on the street will just half moon in to attack you, it's just ludicrous!!!
    Just my experience.
    Cheers!
     
  20. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    First, I must say that although I agree with your sentiments, I do not agree to the extent that arts must now not evolve. Muay Thai kickboxers back during the initial competitions were hard fighters. Talented even. But they came to realize the faults in their game and in modern times have supplemented their striking game with western boxing to make them even better. This openess and adaptation is the reason why Muay Thai is one of the most sought out and respected striking arts in the world.

    If the Gracie brothers and those that trained under them, never adapted to the realities that were presented by Sambo fighters, Wrestlers and Judoka, then they would have just become another archaic and outdated TMA style.


    I do not speak for other arts, but this is my take on where things went wrong with Kempo. You have a great idea. You have the founding (Kajukenbo) where you have guys from different arts, getting together training, banging (sparring) hard, and even getting into quite a few brawls in the street due to the times and rough area (to say the least). They formulate the first prototype for their art in the form of Kajukenbo. People train with them, people train with some of their instructors such as Chow and Mitose. They decide to go off and do and teach their own thing. I know for a fact that Sijo Emperado (primary founder of Kajukebo for those who don't know) has taken the stance of "go out, learn something new, and if it's good, bring it back" to paraphrase, and due to the nature of how is creation came about was very open-minded about new ideas and techniques. I met quite a few Kaju instructors over last month, and thank god I learned that many still hold those ideals to be true, unlike their east coast Kempo counterparts.

    So now you go 3-5 generations of students down the road just mimicking those rote motions originally concocted decades ago, many of which in complete LARP fashion, some even likely performed incorrectly due to the game of telephone time plays on us, not to mention the continuing mashing of other dead training art's techniques into the system, and you somehow get the ******* child known as "Ke?po."

    I could just imagine if my BJJ class took the same attitude of, "we know it worked in the past, so if we just practice it, it will work now" and how within just ONE generation of students LARPing, how the vast majority of nuance and technique would be lost, and god knows how long it would take for that to be rediscovered by real training all over again. That's not even to say, that if we just closed ourselves up into our bubble, how long it would take for our schools to start losing grappling competitions....oh wait that's already happening.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2007

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