Kempo, Kenpo, Karate and Kung Fu

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by BGile, Apr 28, 2007.

  1. Rabu

    Rabu Valued Member

    it was a generic comment made about MA training in the US...and really the rest of the world.

    I would support your attitude. Train to satisfy yourself. Make sure you understand your goals, set them and achieve them. Even if that goal is simply to experience the whole martial training genre.
  2. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    Kaju has never denied FMAs influence on the art. Furthermore, one of the branches (Wun Hop Kuen Do), has a huge component of FMA in the art that is quite openly discussed.
  3. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    You would think that his bout with Sakuraba would have told him that (Seeing that Saku is the "Gracie Hunter"), but nooo..he had won against Akebono and reformulated the opinion that BJJ wins all the time. Matt Hughes showed him that it doesn't always win. I'm glad he learned that...

    I'm just chiming in. I have nothing to say in this thread other than that, as of yet. :Angel:
  4. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    True it is, and should be, since whence it came and all that. It is not something that was talked about until later on, but was a major influence part of the whole BS and stuff. I have known since attending Johnny Leonings school in the middle 60's actually. One of the reasons I am told I never am who I say or what I did. No one wants to go where I come from, heck they are saying now Johnny was not even in Kaju. LOL

    Notice the history now nary, a mention. :google: Rules.

  5. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    True in your short time posting here, you seem to understand my position well. :D

  6. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    So what do you make of this patch and where do you think this person was coming from?

    Attached Files:

  7. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    I can't speak for all of Kaju, but at least for WHKD, it was one the first arts the founder, Al Dacascos, learned (along with Judo). As far as I know, our club and knife work (Kaju and WHKD) has always been credited to FMA.

    As for Johnny, that article isn't comprehensive of everything Kaju. It's a short summary.
  8. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    Well, I will have to ask my Sifu, but it was probably during the time Al Dacascos, Al Dela Cruz, and Sijo Emperado were experimenting with adding more Gung Fu to Kaju. It resulted in the Tum Pai, Chu'an Fa, and eventually Wun Hop Kuen Do branches. The history is actually pretty clear on that.
  9. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    That would be a good thing to talk to him about, also on your other post regarding a short summary don't you think the first guy to come to the mainland would be mentioned? New/different direction as in the past change and create :rolleyes: Your teacher just went into the direction Johnny started IMHO and same with Sonny Gascon. If the truth be known Johnny and Sonny are more responsible for the other parts of Kajukenbo. My thoughts. Ask you leader about that thought also. If you would be so kind.

  10. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    I will ask, but you, as a student of history, should already be well aware that those other three branches were the result of the people I mentioned. Gascon and Leoning weren't involved in the process.

    Specifically in regards to WHKD, Al Dacascos was the sole inventing person (with Sijo's input of course). To suggest otherwise is simply a fallacy. It's only a 40-year-old art. Everyone involved in it's creation is still alive (with the exception of Leonard Endrizzi, an early black belt of Sifu Al's). You can ask any number of people and you will hear the exact same story.
  11. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    The two I mentioned are the reason for it and then the others ran with it, simple deduction if you ask me. :cool:
    Must be why I am so well liked by certain individuals in Kajukenbo. ;)

    What came first is anyones guess, sure you can say it is only 40 years old but what and who predates it, and what did they do is the best way to look at it. I figure if you talked to Bill Ryusaki, he could tell you. Same with Mike Rash or Sonny Gascon.

    John Bishop might comment, or not. What do you think Nuck? Still just Crazy Gary :saz:

  12. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    As far as WHKD goes, you are nuts--I will refrain from the other branches because I am only moderately knowledgeable about their histories. WHKD isn't "Kaju + Gung Fu." It's translated as "combination fist art" and is a "system without a system." The people you mentioned never developed anything like it. Furthermore, Al Dacascos was fairly close on the heels of Leoning, et al in coming to the mainland to spread the art. I believe he arrived in '64 although I could be off a few years. Through his personal development, WHKD was born in 1969--it had nothing to do with Gascon, etc. Your conspiracy theories are just that. Why don't you ask anyone knowledge in those organizations if they were involved in WHKD and get back to me? As I am sure you already know, they won't claim any credit, because they weren't involved in any way.
  13. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Well that is your thought and I am sure it will be your's for as long as you are party line.

    You know what they say about truth and legend, print the legend. To many things are now different to be able to decipher. But why don't you just talk to whom I mentioned?

    The Idea is the spark or where the thought came from or why it came and why others, did a turn and a twist or an angle and not the same old stuff.
    No conspiracy no crime just not giving credit where credit is due, happened all the time with this organization, still does. LOL Only Sijo gets the nod as the one who did it all. Just ask any who have run a foul of that thought.

    Then it will be sister san and then son san :rolleyes:

    You are in the organization, no one is going to tell you different in the organization. LOL Talk to Joe Shuras he is an amigo and is in with Sonny now.
    He is a mutual contact, easy as pie. Or as they say, falling out of the line up.
  14. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Well Gary, if you look at Shaolin Kempo you can see what Gascon is essentially taking credit for (though I think it was far more the invention of Pesare, Cerio and Villari). It has nothing to do with the established Kajukenbo branches or methods. Niether Gascon or Leoning developed a branch of Kajukenbo. Sorry to dissapoint you on that one.
  15. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    Present day Shaolin Kempo (excluding Ralph Castro's because that is Shaolin KeNpo) is definately Pesare, Cerio and Villari. Villari has a lot to do with what is taught after black belt, minus Hon Suki, White Crane/Branches of the Falling Pine and Swift Tigers.
  16. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    Maybe it would be good to ask the people who been there, not the one's who broke away. That would be the "inner circle" you refer to.



  17. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    I don't think they developed any of the styles of Kajukenbo, but where they were going is what happened eventually in the various branch's IMHO.
    Sort of why I feel it is really a shame that Leoning did not get the credit due to him by Sijo. But knowing the nature of the beast from many stories and history of many other organizations it is something that is very prevelant. Just hoping the next chapter of the book will be available.

    You will give the credit to the others who followed Sonnys stuff, but all the credit goes to Sijo. Karazenpo is a creation of Gascon.
    But it is John Leonings also. True in my thought pattern. If you want the son go to the father...(old horse story in breeding) The reason for the resistence for saying Sonny and Johnny were not learning anything from others in San Francisco, it interferes with the time line of the new approved story.

    Nothing should be taken from any of them, (none of them no one) as it was developed similar to the gas engine, someone had the idea and others improved or not.

    Danjo you are sounding like a Myna bird, not a thinking working practioner who at a moments notice might have to improvise and create.

    Conseptualize the situation and conceive the idea, based on millions of years of existance, man has done it since the dawn of time. Simple.
  18. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Thank you John I appreciate any information you are willing to part with.
    This is good information for me who like many others are still learning about the small circle. Wally Jay said it best ''Pain makes believers".
    Last edited: May 1, 2007
  19. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned


    I tried to upload just one from my pictures the first of the three to ask you the date and time period of it. But to many for my standing with MAP. You on the other hand (as it should be) have privleges :cool:

    So I guess that is how I'll have to handle it, as stated above about the first of the 3, I know the others who followed but not the one without above and below mentioning of Kajukenbo or the name of the person.

    I think Johnny was one who thought he was bigger than the boss, but was not. I believe his example, has kept many in line. ;)

  20. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    Here is another mystery for you Gary.
    Thomas Young Dojo, circa 1949. 4 seated instructors, L to R: Woodrow McCandless, Thomas Young, Simeon Eli, Antone Krutcy.
    Read the kanji behind them. Also ask the old timers you know to confirm the picture of Choki Motobu behind them. I heard it from his own mouth (Thomas Young) "kenpo is Okinawan". Maybe he was lying to me? Only he knew for sure.


Share This Page