Kempo, Kenpo, Karate and Kung Fu

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by BGile, Apr 28, 2007.

  1. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    So any one want to start and explain what they think the various terms mean? Should you spar, do all the systems spar or are they more into Kata.

    Goes back a long way as to the different thoughts of what a school wanted to teach. Choki Motobu felt one way and Gichin Funakoshi thought another.

    Mitose was thinking different than the ones that came about later.

    Gary :)
  2. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Karate = Japanese striking art
    Kung Fu = Chinese striking art disguised as interpretative dance
    Kempo = Bastardization of the two
    Kenpo = Misspelled bastardization of the two
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2007
  3. flashlock

    flashlock Banned Banned

    You misspelled the word misspelled. :D
  4. armanox

    armanox Kick this Ginger...

    methinks that a flame war's about to start.....
  5. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Egads! :eek:
  6. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    All it takes is a spark......and a lot a lot of kindling :)
  7. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    No flame war. Kempofist just explained his view quite clearly.

    I find it interesting how it has been twisted and turned to fit the specific hole people want to put it in and not really doing a lot of research.

    Lets start with this one.


  8. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    You could just link to wikipedia articles on all of those MAs.
  9. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    I could, true...probably will. I was hoping for somemore input, run the thread into the hundreds and not just 10 post's :google:

    Pacificshore runs a tight ship, therefore it would probably be a good thread. :D

    Last edited: Apr 29, 2007
  10. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    But after all those posts, my initial response will still ring true :rolleyes:
  11. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Way to simplistic Kempofist. You should look up what they are regarding various source's and you'd probably not be so convinced in your thoughts.

    Major cross overs have occured and lend to the lack of knowledge where and when and why they are not the same.

    Take Kajukenbo for example. What is it and where did it come from? It is one that has many of the arts in it and says so from the start.

  12. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Quite the contrary. Personally I feel if you try to go any deeper than the way I put it, you are unnecessarily overthinking it. Look at modern day Ke?po. You have a mish mosh of Japanese karate kata, and completely watered down and bastardized Kung Fu forms. Mixed with that a bunch of "self defense" techniques that are mostly choreographed off of some ridiculous lunging punch, or static grab whether it be grabbing in a choke, collar grab, wrist grab, poor-mans shoot or any other such unrealistic bunk. Some of the more realistic schools, dupe themselves into thinking the moves are useful by making small changes to them so they can be used against some jab-cross type attack where the uke immediately stops fighting or goes with the technique once contact is made at the appropriate point.

    It's the ******* child of Kung Fu and Karate LARPing. Looking into lineages, and all that jazz is simply overthinking something that was never thought out to begin with.
  13. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Kempofist mentions,
    It's the ******* child of Kung Fu and Karate LARPing. Looking into lineages, and all that jazz is simply overthinking something that was never thought out to begin with.

    I'll say. Should we put that same thought process into the way BJJ came about?

    Judo Gene for a reason, has his thoughts about the various arts and he is always trying to one over the others. If you will look very seriously at the way the first cage fights went and how they are today.

    BJJ surly would not have been reigned the champ it was. Standing them up and then going again would have been the downfall of BJJ right out of the git go in my humble opinion.
    I found this on another thread. Interesting...

    For JJJ the main problem IMO is finding a club that actually trains alive. You can do impressive looking and complicated standing armlocks, throws and wristlocks against compliant opponents all day if that's what grabs you but if you're not used to dealing with resistance then you're not going to learn to use those techniques on an aggressor. You do BJJ so you will realise what I mean if you go to such a club. Having said that, this doesn't go for all JJJ clubs by any stretch of the imagination.

    I think judo and BJJ are both very effective arts that compliment each other very well. If I really had to choose one over the other, there are a couple of things that I'd take into account.

    1) Although it's rare for me to argue that an art is better because it's "designed for the street rather than for sport", I SLIGHTLY prefer judo for self defence purposes as opposed to submission grappling matches. The reason is that although I recognise the importance of learning groundwork I feel that judo strikes a better balance between standing up and fighting on the ground. Judo has much better standup grappling IMO; BJJ does have better groundwork due to more legal techniques and more time focussed on it, but people who attack you in real life are unlikely to understand submission grappling so I think judo newaza is sufficient for self defence purposes. I still think BJJ is effective for self defence though, and many people would argue that the no-gi work that you do in BJJ is crucial.

    2) On the other hand BJJ is (at least where I come from) nowhere near as popular as judo - in fact I'd go as far as to say that judo is the only really popular (to the same degree as karate etc) live grappling style around. Therefore, seeing as you can train judo basically anywhere, you might as well learn the extra ground skills from the rarer art of BJJ while you have the opportunity.

    "ANY martial arts training is an abstraction. The only questions are where and to what degree you make your compromises." - the most sensible thing ever said on MAP, by ap oweyn.
    This makes sense also. But it is all in, Kempo...Why? :) because it is from Ju Jutsu and they were incorporated 100's of years ago. ;)
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2007
  14. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    So if early cage fights had standup rules Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu wouldn't have done so well? What's your point? Since when does street fighting or self defense have standup rules? And look at todays MMA. It does have standup rules, in fact Royce claims that's why BJJ doesn't win anymore....but I think he learned his lesson on that flawed mentality in his last venture into the Octagon.

    And what was the purpose of posting this? Judo and BJJ compliment each other, and focus on different ranges. The author clearly understands this. So does this have some bearing on the discussion of Kempo being the ******* child of Kung Fu and Karate LARPing?

    Awesome quote. I agree. So what does that have to do with this discussion?

    It is all Kempo? LOL. Now that is a logical leap if I ever saw one. And as far as your conclusion that Judo and BJJ are nothing but Jujutsu, you couldn't be further from the truth. Their training methodologies is what sets them apart, and that separation is broader than any ocean. Kano realized the flaws in Jujutsu techniques, and the training methodology he engaged in, so he set off on his own competing and tossing out the intricate and "deadly" bunk, and getting down to basics of what's really useful in fighting. BJJ was bred from that through Maeda, only the Gracies focused on the Newaza more than most Judoka, and did not abide by the sportive ruleset for Judo overseas. Instead they competed in Vale Tudo events, where as little rules as possible were utilized.

    Do I believe all the legendary hype spouted by the Gracies about their success in Brazil? Of course not. Hell the most famous battle was where Helio got manhandled and broken by the Judoka Kimura in a challenge match, so take that as you will.

    But anyway back to the point. What does any of this have to do with what I've said about Kem/npo?
  15. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    Hey Kempofist,

    One problem with your definition of Kung Fu is that you forget that many styles of Kung Fu have grappling included. Now, it is true these styles are rarer in the US, but they still exist.
  16. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    I understand that. There are countless styles of Kung Fu, all with different focus. Unfortunately from what I see the integration of "Kung Fu" into Ke?po is more along the lines of "lets take some animal forms, make them easy enough for some vastly overweight American to do. Throw some ridge-hand, knife-hand and crane stances into our techniques and say 'we incorporate Kung Fu.'"
  17. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    And proper live grappling training from what I've seen and heard is only done in BJJ, Judo, Sambo and new submission and MMA schools. Aside from that, most places that claim to "grapple" do standing armlocks, wrist/thumb-locks, and train anything remotely useful completely compliant and dead. In Ke?po they take it an extra step and add in some "nasty stuff" on the ground, that will make even the toughest grappler squeal in agony. :rolleyes:

    Here's lookin at you Larry Tatum, Jeff Speakman, and Frank Trejo! :woo:
  18. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    You should check out WHKD then; of course that's Kaju taken to the kung fu extreme (with lots of FMA) so it's not quite the same. Our forms are definitely not watered down (one of the reasons it takes so long to rank in WHKD).
  19. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    Again, it's probably just rarer in the US--I imagine in China the kung fu they do includes quite a bit of grappling. I know my style trains proper life grappling, but then again it isn't old school, so it's not good for comparison in that regard.
  20. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    I put the judo and jiu juitsu up to show they did complement each other. I was thinking in the US the others have been sort of grouped to complement each other also.

    You seem to be totally against kempo. As I have mentioned it is not all about fighting, it is about self defense.


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