Katas/Forms

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by Kenpo_Iz_Active, Jul 20, 2007.

  1. Kenpo_Iz_Active

    Kenpo_Iz_Active Greek Warrior-not 300

    I personally think Kenpo overdoes it with katas. Few are ok, like three, but its just my opinion. they just seem to overshadow the rest of Kenpo, and practicioners spend more time practicing katas than technique. What do you think?
     
  2. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    If you don't learn your kata, you will never learn the secret techniques or the grappling of ke?po hidden in the forms.
     
  3. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    Kata's/forms are an essential part of learning. You can take apart your forms to find the fighting concepts/techniques/lessons that are taught in the forms. There are takedowns that could be missed because you're just viewing the form as "just a kata." You'd be amazed at how many sweeps/takedowns are in the forms. It's really fun to take the forms apart to find these things.
     
  4. Kenpo_Iz_Active

    Kenpo_Iz_Active Greek Warrior-not 300

    well, i never really "took apart" a kata. I just thought they were there for balance and stuff like that. but, learning too many katas can get kinda confusing, or you forget the previous. that's why i prefer few forms, as opposed to a lot.
     
  5. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    That's what practice and video taping yourself if for. I've been studying Kempo for 20 years...I know all my Kempo forms and then some. Take apart your kata's. It's about finding the applications in the forms as well as the other things you mentioned.
     
  6. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Stop giving BS artists an opening to slip out through. We just got through a 700+ post thread on this issue over on BS. http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=56324
     
  7. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    So, you guys are finally "through" with dismissing kata? I thought that would never end...



    The value of kata to any student depends on their teacher and how he uses them in his program. Kempofist had poor kempo teachers, so his appreciation of kata is based on that. I'm sure his students felt the same way about them as he does.

    If your teacher is only teaching them as baalnce exercises or movement drills then 3 is probably enough.
     
  8. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    I don't believe it's an opening. If the person is a real BS artist, then he won't look for anything that could even be a fighting technique. Not everything is as clear as glass in the martial arts...sometimes, you need to think to be able to find it.
     
  9. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    I never dismissed kata...in fact, I would do a group class based on the bunkai of a form sometimes, even if they didn't have the form. I didn't care. If I thought the technique was worth learning, I'd teach it.
     
  10. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Quite the contrary. If you read the thread, you'll find the kata bashers are the ones being greatly disparaged. In short, the debate came down to the very definition of what kata is or is not. Kata bashers viewed it in the sense of what most think of; long drawn out patterns of motions, utilizing stances and such not utilized in fighting, chambered punches, and eccentric hand positioning.

    Those that defended kata argued that things like striking combinations/drills, and two-person drills also were grouped into the term "forms" or "kata" within their training.

    In the end, no one was defending something like this http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...294&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1
    as being anything much more than perhaps a fun workout or something to compete with in tournaments.

    The ideas behind taking techniques out of your kata is backwards thinking. You shouldn't have something that is seemingly implausible, and then try to tear it apart to make it useful. You should be given basic useful tools that you can build upon and drill live, so that you may gain better proficiency in actual combat. Because in the end, even if there is useful things that can be rationalized within the numerous Ken/mpo katas, you sure as hell aren't getting any better at actually doing them by practicing that kata over and over.
     
  11. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    It's not backwards thinking...it's thinking in general. You are given basic useful tools. It's up to your instructor to help you find them. See, a really good instructor has goal...and that goal is to make their students better than them at the belt they are at. So, learning how to understand a kata, taking it apart, finding the fighting application in the movements, is helping them to do just that. This truely does show you had a really bad instructor. Sorry you can't see the value in training kata. I can see the value in it and so can others.
     
  12. BROWN

    BROWN Valued Member

    Geez Kempo fist you do preach that Aliveness stuff like a bible basher.... Ever converted anyone..
     
  13. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Yes. In fact have gotten plenty of PMs and emails from people thanking me for laying out quite concisely what they were thinking in the back of their minds, but were kept telling was wrong. And this isn't an alive vs dead argument per se (but it can be tied into it fairly easily) but rather an efficient vs inefficient use of time debate.

    To use the toobox analogy, what I advocate is going down to the hardware store, and purchasing quality tools that are proven to work and suit my needs.

    What the "tear a kata apart and make it work" crowd are advocating, is purchasing some giant contraption that has all of the tools (some of them antiquated) sticking out of it, and trying to dismantle it and put it back together in various ways to make it practical and relevant to the job at hand.

    If in Jiu-Jitsu, Matt had me lie on the floor and flop through a series of motions, and then try to argue that I can use and combine "parts" of it in different ways to successfully grapple - rather than just show me and have me practice/drill/spar with efficient techniques that he knows to work through regular use - I probably wouldn't be training there very long, nor would anyone else who is serious about their training and progress.
     
  14. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    What suits your needs at this point in time doesn't match what suits someone else's needs. What is effective for your needs is fine. No one is saying that it's wrong. However, some people also learn differently than others do. Some people like to have the intellectual challenge of not being given everything on the "silver platter of techniques" and like figuring things out for themselves.
     
  15. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    [​IMG]
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  16. MatsunoCj

    MatsunoCj Jujitsu rookie

    i always learned that to practice every move or technique in a kata on its own as i do it and focus on each part of the kata as if it were by itself.
     
  17. Pacificshore

    Pacificshore Hit n RUN!

    Back in the day we weren't caught up in labels..."aliveness" "dead training"...etc.
    We just trained hard and if something worked great, if it didn't we altered it or simply dumped it. ;)
     
  18. Rabu

    Rabu Valued Member

    Forms are an excellent way to preserve a syllabus for a system of boxing.

    I would agree that not training with people who resist will simply make them 'dances' with little value to a fighter other than cardio, should they be done long enough or with enough force to cause 'sweating'.

    The 'Kata-Waza-Bunkai' method of disassembling kata to understand technique and principle is not a poor method of training. Just one which is less directly oriented to immediate application of skill.

    I certainly view my Taolu as opportunities to 'shadow box' and excercise. I enjoy and find great satisfaction in learning the applications from the forms and working to apply them in sparring. However, this kind of practice has not been the norm from my personal experience.

    Often, Fighting application and forms are entirely seperate beasts with little relating to each other. Thats a pity. The marrying of the two allows for an additional impact in your training, whether you like it or not.

    Best regards,

    Rob
     
  19. K3MP0

    K3MP0 New Member

    Great topic

    I enjoy forms and being new to Kempo I haven't seen many Kempo ones. But from what I have found on the internet they look very fast compared to Ving Tsun forms. That's no bad thing I like a work out. My instructor is very fast I have a video of him doing some forms I can post it if anyone is interested.


    Does any line of Kempo or Kenpo include south Chinese San Chin forms? Ving Tsun uses similar postures but I think it is quite different and I'd like to see how similar the same set is in different arts.
     
  20. Kenpo_Iz_Active

    Kenpo_Iz_Active Greek Warrior-not 300

    my instructor believes katas are useful... what ticks me of is that there so many, and have a lot of useless moves.
     

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