Kata - new or old

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Mike Flanagan, Jul 30, 2009.

  1. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    In another thread, not so far away, TKDMitch said:

    My reply...

    First I should say that I'm in a bit of a state of flux at the moment with regard to what kata I'm teaching, as I'll explain.

    The kata we use in our club (slightly different to the other clubs in our rather small group) fall into the following categories:

    - Modern kata, devised within our group
    - early 20th century kata
    - classical Shorin Ryu kata
    - weapons kata

    To look at these in more detail:

    Modern kata: We currently have 3 of these:

    1. Shinzen

    This is a short simple form designed by my instructor to teach new students about breathing (specifically abdominal breathing), good posture (it only uses 2 stances: ready & forward) and body language.

    2. Shinsei

    The 2nd of my instructor's forms. This is quite a long exercise and is essentially just a list of techniques that he has found useful over the years. Many (but not all) of the techniques are simple breakaways or simple controls, aimed at low level situations or for people who have to manage aggression in their client groups (eg. social workers, care staff, NHS staff). The form looks and feels very different to karate kata. I'm currently teaching it around green/brown belt level.

    3. Keri-waza

    This is my own exercise, which is simply a catalogue of kicking techniques and principles. Its designed to follow the basic Pinan floor pattern to make it easier to remember. Don't get too excited though - there are no high, spinning or flying kicks at all (although there is 1 jumping kick in it). I use it at green/ brown belt level to improve student's ability & understanding of kicking.

    Early 20th century kata

    1. Sanchin

    OK, so I'm teaching a Naha-te form in a Shuri-te system, why's that? Well, first I'll state that its my own modified version of Sanchin, that doesn’t use the high degree of tension you see in the Goju Ryu version. I introduce it in the beginning grades (orange - usually for the 2nd grading) to teach several things:

    • Inner circular stance (other later kata use the inherent 'inner circular' principle to a degree but don't explicitly teach it), so that the student learns to have a stable, strong base in a relatively small stance
    • Connection between the different parts of the body through a degree (but not an excess) of tension. The stance works the legs appropriately. The centre is deliberately tensed in a Pilates kind of way, with associated pelvic tilt. The muscles of the chest, upper back and shoulder girdle are tensed by way of putting the hands and elbows into their correct relative positions (rather than consciously tensing the muscles). This gives a degree of pliable tension in some muscles but doesn't encourage excess tension in those muscles that shouldn't be working.
    • Horizontal and lateral deviation of the arms when pushing or pulling in order to overcome a linear force.

    I don't really teach applications of this kata as such, although obviously you can bits of it and put them into practical situations. But for me its more about how its training the musculature & posture.

    /to be continued...
     
  2. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    2. Pinans

    Until recently I used to teach the 5 Pinan kata. These were the primary means of learning mechanical & tactical principles for kyu grade students. In other words, this is where most of our bunkai comes from in the first several years of training. However, I've recently become increasingly dissatisfied with the Pinans. I was once of the view that they're full of practical technique, every bit as 'deadly' as what are usually considered the 'advanced' kata. Now I'm less convinced. There are certainly lots of useful principles in the Pinans, but I now feel that too much attention was paid to making them fit the arbitrary floor pattern for the kata series, at the expense of practicality. So I'm in the middle of replacing them with my own kata! Shock, horror! But don't worry. All I’ve really done is take the techniques in the Pinan kata and arrange the majority of them in (what to me is) a more logical sequence – logical in terms of a) how difficult the movement is to perform and b) the severity of the application(s). Its split into 4 sections so students can learn as little as 1 section for 1 grade. Its also designed to avoid repetition, ensure that all techniques are practised on both sides of the body, and doesn’t require loads of space in which to do it. I call it Pinan Daikou (ie. the fundamental principles of the Pinan kata).

    To my mind the dynamic used in this kata (or the way I do the Pinans) is essentially the same as Japanese karate. Much emphasis is given to keeping the feet on or close to the ground, power is generated primarily by hip rotation and driving the centre forwards. Many students of Japanese Karate would probably disagree. You can decide yourself:

    www.youtube.com/user/mikeflanagan2000

    I get plenty of messages via youtube criticising my kata for being too slow, too sloppy, not enough focus, even getting the sequence wrong! But this to me points to a fundamental difference in the reason I practice the kata. I’m not trying to make the kata look good, I’m not trying to impress the onlooker with the focus and the end of each technique isn’t intended to be held static and picture perfect for a moment to emphasis my great form. Rather, I’m using to practice what I consider the important lessons in the movements.

    Although I consider the power generation to to be similar to Japanese karate, when I look at modern Shotokan or Wado-Ryu I realise how far I’ve travelled away from those systems. Many of the same themes can be found in the Shotokan (and other) versions of the kata, but IMO the movements are writ so large as to render them less than optimal. Often the details of the arm movements seem to be have been modified to fit some arbitrary ideal, to the same effect. Where relevant, I’ve reverted to older versions of the same movements.

    I teach the Pinans (or now my condensed version) over several grades at orange/green belt level.

    Classical Shorin Ryu kata

    The classical Shorin kata, as I’ve learned them, have quite a different dynamic to Japanese Karate and even to the way I do the Pinans. They are (Japanese names in brackets):

    1. Naihanchi (Tekki) Shodan

    This is the first classical kata I teach. It comes in at early brown belt and is used to introduce the student to the dynamic of the classical kata, in particular what the legs are doing. Its also replete with short, sharp, effective but uncompromising bunkai.

    2. Seisan (Hangetsu)

    In theory Seisan isn’t formally a part of our Shorin Ryu, but it can be and is practised in the same manner. I teach it at brown belt after Naihanchi and use it primarily to take the dynamic introduced in the side to side movements in Naihanchi and build on this in forward and backward movements. At dan grade Seisan can also be readily modified for use as a tonfa or sai kata for those students that are interested in such things.
    The rest of the classical kata I introduce at dan grade (not that I currently have any dan grade students) in sequence:

    - Naihanchi (Tekki) Nidan
    - Passai (Bassai) Sho
    - Passai (Bassai) Dai
    - Rohai (Meikyo)
    - Chinto (Gankaku)
    - Useishi (Gojushiho)
    - Kusanku (Kanku Dai)

    In my experience (thus far) these don’t really teach much new in terms of dynamic but are full of useful applications (some of which, to be fair can also be found in Pinan Daikou).

    Weapons kata

    We also have several weapons kata, mostly for sticks of various lengths, but these are currently under review. Chikin no Bo is a classical kata for 6 foot staff, which we transmit intact. It’s the exercises for shorter sticks that are being reviewed at the moment. Also already mentioned, I use Seisan as a vehicle to practice Sai and Tonfa. Yawara (hand loads) can be practised in most of the empty hand kata.

    In conclusion, I don't think its really which kata you practice that is most important. Its the dynamic and mindset that's key. Though it certainly helps in my view to weed out where possible the recent changes, some of which don't have a detrimental effect and some do. What could be more disheartening to struggle for years trying to understand the meaning of a particular movement, only to find that Gigo Funakoshi changed it simply to make it look better!

    Phew, splurge over!

    Mike
     
  3. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Very interesting and thank you for taking the time to make those posts Mike, much appreciated.

    Do you have any video footage of the Modern Kata you and your Instructor have devised?

    Mitch
     
  4. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Gasp, horror! :D
    I know what you mean. I did go through a stage of teaching the Kata in sequence in line with the relevant parts of the Heian Flow System, but changing the embusen of various movements to suit visualisation of bunkai more. Every so often I'd cut the repetition and mere the five into one as well. Now I just teach my interpretation of Kata as short two man drills, and the teach Shotokan Kata (with very minor alterations to earlier form) as a history exercise in system origins at Brown level.
    Unlike you though, I've maximised movement repetition. The more overlapping sequences for different purposes the better, with no difference in approach between the armed and unarmed.

    I'm not convinced that the Kata's techniques are any less deadly than any of the other Kata I've studied though.


    I know what you mean. :rolleyes:

    That's a large number of Kata Mike! :D
     
  5. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    I don't at the moment I'm afraid. However, here's a description with pics of Shinzen from our old website (its still online although our new one, ironically, is offline right now).

    http://website.lineone.net/~rogersheldon/shinzen1.html

    I'm intending to put Pinan Daikou on youtube shortly, you may have inspired me to take my camcorder to the dojo this very evening. If I do, I’ll have a go at the kicking exercise as well, although ironically I’m not the best proponent at my own kata since I worsened my ankle injury a few years ago.


    Mike
     
  6. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    Hi John

    Me neither, but I don't find that the way kata are organised to be helpful though. I think the shape and sequence of the kata is to some degree a distraction from the real message of the individual techniques.

    One interesting thing that happened after I re-ordered the techniques according to my own criteria: it suddenly felt very liberating. Neither I nor my students now fall into the trap of worrying about making the next technique in the kata work in the current application being practiced. We just take the principles and apply them in any order as seems pertinent. As we know exactly what the 'originator' had in mind when 'he' put the sequence together we don't have to spend time ruminating on the originator's intent.

    Indeed, I am trying to find a way to rationalise things a bit!

    Mike
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2009
  7. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Hi Mike,

    Although there are lots of individual technique applications, I actually enjoyed the existing sequence applications that were available. But I agree with you that once you have a feel for the moves, freedom of direction and intent is an important part of study. That's something that I hoped the HFS would encourage more people to do.

    I've simplified the Kata I teach down to Heian and Empi (and Niseishi/Nijushiho in some instances). But I don't introduce the Kata's solo form until just before instructor level.
     
  8. ojisan

    ojisan Valued Member

     
  9. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    That's fighting talk sir! :D
     
  10. crushing step

    crushing step Valued Member

    I'm going to chime in late here, but I wanted to say thanks to someone noticing a problem here!

    I had spent some time in Shotokan, obviously a Shorin derivative. We called the Pinan series Heian, and while cross training with a guy from a Shorin backgorund, I did see differences in stances and such.

    My first lightbulb moment that something was not quite right was a video of "official" bunkai from someone higher up in our organization, and the apps just seemed so ridiculous. The nail in the coffin was something openly talked about in Shorin / Shotokan history. (I'll quote from the wiki because it's easy)

    So really my number one thesis against the teaching of these kata as practical is already laid out. You have some classical kata from a patriarchial source set as an exercise which may or may not have held "deadly" techniques, these techniques were removed or changed for safety and mass training of children, and over a hundred years later some westerner is trying to re-create deadly "bunkai" from the forms. If this actually sounds like a good idea to someone, I'm all ears. In reality it seems that modern Shorin / Shotokan folks really want these kata to be deadly, and force uncomfortable apps into the forms, does that about sum it up?

    That said, the "new or old" in the topic line did catch my interest for a completely different reason, haha... Does anyone practice legitimatly "old" kata dating prior to 1900 or so that seems to be truly both classical and practical?
     
  11. ojisan

    ojisan Valued Member

    Well this is, after all, a "Martial Arts" forum.
     
  12. ojisan

    ojisan Valued Member

    This is from a paper I wrote for my Sensei "Newly devised forms (Pinan kata), refined and introduced by Anko Itosu (20), were used as the introductory kata. While based on, and derived from traditional karate kata, the movements of the Pinan kata were simplified and standardized for practice by middle and high school students. Kata were now taught as a method of solo performance (as demonstration, and not for analysis and partner practice), with only the most superficial application explanations. Many of the more dangerous techniques in the kata were modified to prevent injury when being practiced by adolescents.

    The students learning this “modern” karate were, for the most part, unaware that this was not the original tode. Many of these students went on to become instructors and unwittingly passed it on. Genwa Nakasone, in a treatise on karate, said "Itosu first taught at the Okinawa Prefecture School for Teachers but it was modern karate that he taught there, not the old style. Except for a few experts who realized he was teaching the modern form, most of the people thought he was teaching the old style, and this misunderstanding exists even today! This is a very serious misunderstanding."(21)

    While “modern” karate was being taught openly in the schools, there was a small group of tode masters who continued to teach select students the original karate. Some of these masters were even teaching “modern” karate during the day and traditional tode in the evenings. These were mainly nobles who were literate, and who had formerly held positions at the palace, but now were forced, through economic circumstance, to accept teaching positions in order to make a living. Thus it was that the original karate was preserved and passed on, to a few, through private instruction."


    It is my understanding that there are still some knowledgeable people around who understand this stuff

    [/QUOTE]That said, the "new or old" in the topic line did catch my interest for a completely different reason, haha... Does anyone practice legitimatly "old" kata dating prior to 1900 or so that seems to be truly both classical and practical?[/QUOTE]

    I don't know where you might find the "original" kata. I spent more than 20 years in Shotokan before wandering off on my own to backtrack.

    The kata that I practice are largely drawn from Matsubyashi and other ources that seem to have less Nipponization.

    Where are the originals? You got me.
     
  13. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Hi Crushing Step,

    The argument for them being filled with effective fighting techniques is very simple. They contain movements, and indeed entire sequences, that are found in related forms deemed to be 'more advanced' and very effective. I wouldn't say that movements were taken out per se, merely that applications were removed from the syllabus, and in the later case of Shotokan entirely new applications for a different range were created while the teaching of close range grappling, throwing and sweeping was dropped to make a clearer line between Karate and Judo (Kano making parallel changes at the same time between Judo and Ju Jitsu).

    In other words, an uppercut, a forearm strike, and elbow strike etc don't suddenly become non-effective. They are non-effective if the movements are never trained in application against partner or pad, but if they are taught, identified and practised, the Kata becomes effective again (as far as kata training is effective as a means of training).

    As a result I've no problem with the Kata being taught as practical close range fighting systems, or westerners creating "deadly' bunkai from the forms. I've seen some pretty uncomfortable bunkai over the years, but I've also seen (and devised) simple, effective, flinch based bunkai against HAOV that have no real deviation from the Kata movement.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2009
  14. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I'd be really interested to know which ones you do practice?

    MItch
     
  15. crushing step

    crushing step Valued Member

    Outstanding responses, thank you!
     
  16. ojisan

    ojisan Valued Member

    Just to be clear, I never trained in Matsubayashi but I like their kata and train their versions as best I can, with a heavy emphasis on the use of koshi.

    I never studied Goju but picked some stuff up along the way. My Goju kata have much more of a Shorin flavor.

    I practice:

    Pinan 1 - 5 (Matsubayashi)
    Naihanchi 1-3 (Matsubayshi)
    Chinto (Matsubayashi)
    Rohai (Matsubayshi)
    Okan (Matsubayashi)
    Bassai (Matsubayashi)

    Kusanku (as kanku dai highly modified)
    Neiseishi (Okinawan Kenpo) I also do Nijushio in a highly modified form
    Wansu (Kyan version)
    Seisan (Goju version)
    Sanchin (Goju version)
    Saifa (Goju version) I also have an alternate version - source unknown
    Seuinchin (Goju version)
    Sanseiru (Goju version)
    Shisochin Goju version)
    Seipai (Goju version)
    Kururunfa (Goju version)

    I don't work them all as hard as I should and have given up on weapons kata as I have completely changed the way I move and make power. If I ever have time I may start from scratch on weapons.
     
  17. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    If you have never studied these styles, what do you use as resource?

    Gary
     
  18. ojisan

    ojisan Valued Member

    Some of the forms I got from my sensei who had picked up non-Shotokan forms along the way.

    I have gone to some seminars in other systems and I have a great many tapes and dvds that breakdown other system kata.

    I doubt that I could and don't claim to be able to perform kata from other systems in a manner that they would pronounce up to their standard. I'm not trying to learn their systems. I'm backtracking on what I spent decades learning.

    The way I practice my kata is personal. When I work out with the people at my former sensei's dojo, I don't teach my version of kata. I sometimes demonstrate so that they can understand what I am talking about in self defense application.

    I have visited my sensei yearly for the last 5 or six years and he has no problem with the way I do my forms. He understnds that I have taken a different path but he would correct anything he might see as a mistake in motion or application.

    I spend my energy in karate trying to understand the meaning and purpose of kata and how I can use that knowledge in self defense application.

    I can do that effectively without joining a system or dealing with some affiliation.

    Can I claim that what I do is authentic? It's as close as I can get it to what I think the old tode was like. Can I prove it? No.

    Can I use what I am working on? Yes.

    That is what I practice and share with some others. It's just a personal thing, not a formal system. Been there, done that.
     
  19. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Interesting ojisan,

    Thank you

    Gary
     
  20. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Is there any kind of agreement among karateka on the rough age of the various kata? Has anyone got a link that shows any kind of chronological order?

    I'm not looking to start any arguments :), just interested as an outsider.

    Mitch
     

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