My son is currently training with 'Young Olympians' and asked the sensei on what style of MA is he teaching, and said it's kenpo (ed parker style). So i've asked asked him if there's any Kata in their curriculum and he said there is only 2-kata. So i've search the internet and found a various thing about kenpo and its kata, some kenpo has the traditional japanese kata (heian/pinan, tekki, etc.), some has some chinese/korean (?) name (but doing the traditional jap kata) and others just the 2-kata that my son sensei mentioned. So i just want to check if ed parker style of kenpo really do have only 2 kata? is this the same set-up in your school ?
What is your sons instuctors background? Who did he learn from, is his curriculum different by age group? or he just might be a McDojo. find out were he comes from and how long he has been teaching. What his curriculum is for different age groups, that might answer your questions too. Salute,
kata /form forms begining short form 1/ long form 1 /short 2/long 2/short 3/long 3/ form 4/form 5/6/7/8 , but only upto form six is parkers own work,he started 7 but never completed ,finished buy one of his students,form 8 starts with what used to be the finger set(eagle set), also now forms 9/10 these are for competeing, sets block/punch /elbow/ coordination/finger/kick set 1/2/3/4, stances sets junior/senior/advanced ,also advanced kick set,also weapons sets,there are many more,but these are a few of what i teach my students, but tell him to stick to techniques as these are bread and butter ,forms /sets are flowers on the wall ,but if your sons instructor does not teach these ,but teaches under the banner of parkers kenpo,look for another instructor,as he has obviously not studied parkers system correctly,no offence! cheers mat
thanks for all the reply, just talked to my son's instructor last week and confirm some issue, he actually trained kenpo (ed parker style) the group he now belongs (young olympians) change some syllabus for the reason it will be set-up its class for kids. just like most of you said this group is just like a mcdojo but the kids in his class having so much fun that even the parents join the class even its set-up for kids class only. the class is now sponsored by the city of las vegas and its one the cheapest martial-art school here in town. with regards to kata, they have 6 kata (from ed parkers style), only 2 kata are required untill you reach the brown belt, the remaining 4 kata are taught once the student reach black-belt
Check out the Tracy Kempo site. They were in on the ground floor with Ed Parker. www.tracyskarate.com Rob
RE: matsloth Hi folks! Well, here it is! My first post on Martial Arts Planet! To matloth:I'm not sure where you are getting your info, although the listing of the "eagle set" makes me think George Maughan's Universal golden eagle kenpo, but i do want to make a couple of statements regarding your comments... You are correct about the short 1,2,3, but there is a short 4 that is now taught by many american kenpo studios. it is actually designed to be taught after long 4 with the student performing alternate sides of each respective technique [right side -protecting fans,left side-darting leaves,etc...]and then short 5 and 6 were left up the student to create using the same format [although there is allegedly an established format for short 5 but i have not seen someone perform the form] I do not know who told you that form 7 [originally the number for the double knives form but was later used for the double club form and the double knives form was elevated to form 8] was not complete was mistaken. I have seen Mr. Parker on video go over form 7 and worked with Mr. Gilbert Velez, one of the individuals who i've seen on video learn the form from Mr. Parker directly! Also, There were always individuals who helped Mr. Parker directly with the creation of his various forms and sets. The very nature of the man himself was he realized how important the imput of his students were, and their ability to see something he himself had created from a veiwpoint he might not have been aware of,such was the genius of the man himself. However, the double club form as well as the "club set" were already created and complete prior to mr parker's untimely death. As far as form 8 [the double knives form] the finger set format is in the form,and is sometimes taught as seperate set extracted from the form, but, it elaborates on the theories,principles and concepts of the knife and the terminology of the knife [coring,reaming,filletting,etc...] There is no form 9 or 10 in Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate. There are individuals who have indeed created their versions of a form 9 or 10 [Larry Tatum,Skip Hancock,& Mike Pick to name a few {still have to check with Mr.Pick on that to be absolutely sure}] In regards to sets, there are blocking,stance,kicking,finger,striking and co-ordination sets 1 & 2. Anything above that were creation of various individuals after Mr.Parker's death and were not authorized by him for inclusion in the system during his lifespan. I hope that I was of some service, KENPOJOE
thanks for the advice,what syllubus do you use and who is your instructor. 5/6 have formats as laid down by parker ,long 2 is interperitatioal ,what about the book set ect and who the f**k is golden eagle kenpo , who do you consider an authority on parker.when he died his art splintered and all the students took a bit and called themselves top dog.they all made syllubuse and called it parkers work ,form 7 was mainly done also by one of his students (i was told by gary ellis 6thdeg graded 1stdeg under parker)in existence there are 85 sets to day, i was under the impression this was a proggressive system !!.there is only 1 person who can rightfully teach ed parkers kenpo and that is ed parker ,sadly i don't think he will do much more.so it is left to his students to stay with his vision and proggress.i would go on (i usually do but im nackered i've just taken a gradeing ,nice standards they all passed )check out some parker quote's ,like the one "when i am gone" ,ect . one more thing sets and forms are only training aids and not cast in stone so chill out dude .gary ellisi's 1st deg under parker took 15 minutes he did'nt do 1 form or set. cheers matt
I believe that when Parker Sr passed he left it up to "his students" to take the art and continue teaching it as he taught it to them. Forever evolving passed what he taught them. If you were a what ever dan in Kenpo with ed parker he expected you to learn from a higher rank within that style after he died. but that Higher rank was allowed to break off and do his own thing as long as he kept the principles intact. Also isnt 5th Dan the highest rank material wise you can achieve in Kenpo?? after that is just time in service and contribution to the art?? Salute,
kenpo in some clubs in the uk above 1st is given not earn't.i personaly think all should be earn't ,at present i'm planning my 2nd under my instructor and i have requested longer and harded,my 1st was 4 hours ,i think i should have progressed and have a greater understanding for my 2nd so that is what i have asked .it's a shame kenpo is so splintered ,to many cooks .it's like short 4 and long 4 as pointed out by kenpo joe in the uk short 4 bearly exists we only teach what was long 4 (we just call it form 4 now).there are so many syllubuses ,so many opinions ,but **** its all kenpo.beyond that its all martial arts.the question you should ask is does it work ,is it fun . matt
It's not American Kenpo but... When Sonny Gascon came to our school he and Prof. Rash showed us some of the original Kajukenbo forms and thety were nearly identical to the forms we practice today. Soem of the numbers were swaped and som of the forms were re-arranged a littel but it was cool to see the continuity.
Response to matsloth Dear Matt, To answer your questions... I use the IKKA syllabus set down by Mr. Parker prior to his untimely death in 1990 and I had trained under Mr. Parker as well as other instructors such as Joe Palanzo,Frank Trejo,Richard "Huk" Planas,Lee Wedlake and other first Generation EPAKK black belts for the last 21 years. I was many times Mr. Parker's kenpo "Dummy" {I still consider being called that a good thing, LOL!} for his New England Seminars over the 7 years that he taught in the New England area. I would follow him throughout his tours of New England studios and was in the process of opening the first Ed Parker Kenpo Karate franchise in new england at one time. I was also the first EPAKK black belt in New England to perform and win/place at tournaments for KRANE [Karate Referees association of New England] and the PKL [Professional Karate League]doing Mr. Parker's forms and was in the top ten for each for those years. Simply stated, I was a "pain in the backside" that was always asking questions,mentioning things that he had done over the years, and generally soaking up as much kenpo as i could whenever I was in Mr. Parker's presence. Although I wasn't in CA and didn't get a "daily dose" of Mr. Parker, I made it my personal mission to learn as much as i could about the system from him and after his death. Many people consider me a kenpo historian because i'm always looking for the whys and wherefores of the system, to the point that Ed Parker Jr once dubbed me "The Kenpo Nerd" {yet another term I don't mind! LOL!} I've collected Kenpo material of Mr. Parker's system and life and until 2 years ago, was planning on opening the "Ed Parker Memorial Museum" [which only recently has there been hope of actually starting with that plan again] With donations from many kenpoists who would love to see this plan come to fruition. RE: your statement about the forms, all of them have specific formats laid out,broken down and detailed out. There have been "elaborations" done over the years as Mr. Parker evolved and gained insight from his own students insights. Mr. Parker was alway wise enough to realize how little he knew and was looking for sounding boards and people to ask him questions to make him start thinking of a new way or a different format for a particular aspect. However, there was an established format that is in the system and remains to this day. As far as long 2 being "interpectational" all forms are,but only after you can perform the form as dictated by Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate syllabus. Book set came from a student finding a book on a Hung Gar form that some people know as the Book Set and Jimmy Wing Woo teaching that form at Mr. Parker's Pasadena studio until one of Mr. Parker's/Woo's students hung himself in his garage allegedly while practicing a drill that Woo had taught him,that, along with other problems in their relationship, caused Woo and Parker to part ways and Mr. Parker dropped Book Set and Tiger and the Crane forms from the system because they were not original invention of the kenpo system,but rather, forms that came from other styles. As far as you mentioning "Eagle set", the only place i've ever heard of an "eagle set" was through George Mauhan's Universal golden eagle kenpo out of europe. There is no one individual that I consider the SOLE authority on Mr. Parker's system, that is why I train and study with different people! To get diverse insights from these different people on what they learned from this great man during his lifespan. His art didn't splinter,matt, people left or were kicked out for different reasons, some justified,some not. I was around for that and saw it up close and personal sometimes, but still kept an open mind and worked with anyone who worked with mr parker to gain more insight into him. There are now the "Seasame Street" of kenpo organizations out there now and those presidents of those groups add to the well of knowledge with their own insights into Mr. Parker's original material...but that is their contributions, not what was in the original system. There is nothing wrong with adding to the curriculum, as long as you take credit for your work and accomplishment, and don't say "Ed Parker did this or created this" when he didn't. In regards to form 7, Many times a student would come up with a thesis form or idea and Mr. Parker would like it and incorporate it into the system, but in most cases it was not until he had either A. taught it originally [as in staff set to chuck sullivan] B. Gave the original idea to a given person or a concept or principle or a overall foundation for the person to elaborate on using their given field of expertise of C. Took the idea/thesis and reworked it to where it followed his mindset and agreed with his format of the system. Form 7 was such an example. To say it was simply created by someone else did the whole form and Ed Parker simply said "yup" and it was gospel was not the case. Where do you get the 85 sets figure???? You are right that kenpo is indeed a progressive system as Mr. Ellis uses as his banner for what he does with Mr. Parker's system and I applaude him for his insight and if all goes well i'll meet him and hopefully interview him for my tv show when he comes to Massachusetts in a couple of weeks. Congratulations on the testing/grading and i'm glad whenever anyone is perpectuating Mr. Parker's system. As far the sets and forms being cast in stone, well...they are put down on paper and there are basic formats to be followed or you are simply doing "your version" of Mr. Parker's system, not the system per se. by the same token, he did encourage us to build upon the system he formulated and endorsed it when it followed his perameters. Obviously, he can no longer do that in a physical sense but the art does evolve from the foundation set forth by this great genius. As far as Mr. Ellis' first degree test i'll hopefully ask him about that myself and i'm sure it will be a great story! Matt, was it my signature line that set you off on me or lack of sleep? I don't need to chill out because i hadn't gotten warmed up yet! It's a pleasure cyber "meeting" you! I hope that I was of some service, KENPOJOE
RE: short 4 Hi Folks! Matt, the reason for the rarity of short four being common knowledge was because it was a relatively new aspect in the system. As I eluded to the previous post, Mr. Parker had to oversee and insure that it followed the format of "the system" before it was ok to teach. The form was taught the 1988 Eact coast instructor's camp with Mr.Parker overseeing and Joe Palanzo instructing the form. Also, there was an individual who was charging $400 just to learn it and that was why Mr. Parker wanted it to become common knowledge throughout the system but passed away 2 years later. Howevr, the basic premise was for you to formulate short 4 extracting each technique on alternate sides. Thank you for using more ****s and not swearing on the forum :Angel: I hope that I was of some service, KENPOJOE
RE: Victor "sonny" Gascon & Karazenpo Goshinjutsu Dear David, I've had the pleasure of intervieing Sijo Gascon at the Gathering of the Eagles 2001 [which is available from the tracys], and had the pleasure of talking kenpo history and having him detail out some of the "combinations" at the home of Jim Speights, who tested for his fifth degree under sijo gascon in rhode island as well. Prof Rash would later detail out one of the "monkey dances" that James Mitose would call "cat dances" [neko buto] in Kosho ryu would later be taught through the Kajukenbo lineage. I recently joined the karazenpo organization and had my Fifth Degree in Chinese-Hawaiian kenpo [not parker kenpo] recognized by them. Hopefully, a video on the system will be forthcoming as i've been asked to video tape interviews and create this project. Thank you for your time, KENPOJOE
kenpo hi kenpo joe no offence ment.kenpo in the uk is a troubled thing, trying to get truth's is a full time job .as you know most of what we got was a watered down version brought here be master rose . i'll send you a copy of the syllubus's we were given to work with, they only went to form 4 .it has taken years for me to find some truth's in the kenpo system in the uk, you think its splittererd in the us .here its hard to get 2 people to agree ,let alone give you truths.so some of us have had to move on and improvise ,reading the infinite insights ect.speaking to ex students like you and estimateing what parker wanted through his quotes and litteral work. we have few true kenpoist here ,some proclame to be ,but on the floor sadly let the art down .to give you an idea how troubled ,it's hard to go from club to club, as just about all instructors hate each other with a passion. some have lost complete sight and teach everything parker said as book, every move ect traditionaliseing this great system. drives me mad ,i want this art to be recognised for it's greatness in the uk ,as in the states.but you are fighting a looseing battle here mate. i either teach or train every night ,trying to push boundaries, trying to raise standards (and trust me they need raiseing). so you of all people must understand were i am comeing from ,most of the sets ect i have to hunt down and find ,then try to work out if it is being taught right ,or interperited by someone else. i got the 85 from the clubs i have traveled in the uk ,beleive it or not i have counted over 85 sets being taught here. but people like mr ellis ,athos ect do try to give people kenpo , anyway im just going on now ,but you see were i'm comeing from. i will keep pushing this art ,and keep hunting ,and developeing my own system to bring younger people to kenpo. cheers matt
