"Kata" - an amateur's perspective

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by AZeitung, Oct 1, 2004.

  1. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    I agree with ap-oweyn and Matt Bernius with regards to sparring. If you teach students to perform a load of slow, strong, powerful movements to any target area, then tell them that they're only allowed to spar lightly with big restrictions on target areas (including the head), then of course there's going to be very little correlation between the basics/kata and free sparring! It's as if you're learning two completely different martial arts at the same time and neither complements the other. Is the crucial thing to address, perhaps, fixing the correlation in some way? At TSD, I always felt that people would have far more incentive to use proper technique if the sparring was a bit harder...
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2005
  2. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    w wewre once taught during a seminar before a tourney by a kumite expert, that there were six basic guidelines to kumite, only one of which i can remember :D : vigorous aplication, which means that through the light/medium contact used at kumite, you have to actually do the moves in a way that had you actually hit hard, could have knocked to oponent out or sent him sprawling to the floor, moving like if you were in a real fight for your life, only with medium contact, so if you do a high kick, so have to do it so that had it touched it would stun/knock out/kill your oponent, if you punche him, you should be as if you wanted to knock the air out of him, etc.

    the expert fought a couple fights then on the dan's kumite rounds and kick quite a number of black belt butts(hook kicks to the temple, spin kicks to the stomach, punches to the nose, etc, the only strong contact was the spinkick that sent the other one flying, and knocked the air out of him for quite some time)

    EDIT: IMO i'd say that's one thing that complements in kata and kumite, because the tendion used in kata movements is used for vigorous aplication and the vigorous aplication can halp the body get used to kata body tension.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2005
  3. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Hmm, TBH this sounds a bit complicated and "thinky" to me.

    I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this.
     
  4. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    just do the moves like if the oponent just shot all of your living relatives but following the rules of the tourney(eg: you hit him hard he's dead, only you don't hit him hard)



    that fighitng with strong movements gets you used to tensing during blows, helping with strong kata movements, and vice-versa, of course it it only my opinion
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2005
  5. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    i have this secret method of learning how to get used to tensing during blows- its called sparring with contact. dont tell everyone though! this is my masters secret!

    what on earth is the point in "pretending" to do moves that "would" hurt if you had hit them? what you are doing is training yourself to miss.
     
  6. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    I always used to find in TSD sparring that it was too much mental effort to fight effectively and safely. You had to make sure you didn't make too much contact and hurt your opponent, so that meant either engaging your brain (i.e. not your instinct) or engaging your instinct and ingraining unrealistic habits.

    I will reiterate my point that I don't want to bash the style that anyone does here, but nearly all of the solutions to the problems discussed that I've heard so far have been theoretical and complicated. It's all far too much beating around the bush for my taste. Fighting with aggressive instinct on one hand but using your brain to remember it's not full contact on the other, having loads of techniques because the likelihood is you'll only remember 1 in 20 in real life if you're not used to combat... there is an easier way!

    I think instinct is the single most important aspect when it comes to applying martial arts. Complicated drills which involve too much - or even any - conscious thinking are a Bad Thing, IMO. Your brain is not what controls you in a real fight.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2005
  7. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    no, because what you're suggesting is we do loose non contact sparring, we ACTUALLY hit each other hard and sometimes fall to the ground punching each other, i never mentioned non contact, i just said that we do figght strong like in full contact but with medium contact.
    i've seen people send each other flying with spinkicks, and smashing mouths, breaking bones, bleeding noses, kicking groins and even a couple of those whiplash knockouts that last two seconds(in light-medium contact sparring).
    and there's this black belt who's deafmute but is an excellent karate-ka(one of the best i know actually, and quite a nice dude) and he got trashed quite violently once(he always respects the sparring rules, but i know if he actually hit hard there could be bodies all over the place) and they had to keep him calm and help him between six people(he got hit everywhere along the course of like five fights or so i think, including a close range thrust punch to the heart area, several groin hits, a mouth hit and i think he got one in the back also), and he couldn't get up from the pain(though i've seen him kick butt quite hard also at other times).
    strangely the kumite in our comps is more brutal with BBs than with 15, 16 and 17 y/olds(some of the most violent).

    EDIT:eek:ops took to long, consider this as quoting ikken...

    now for TST: i don't want to start a style vs. style also, but the moves that are to be used on street are the ones allowed in sparring in our comps and dojos(except elbowing and knee-ing, we drill that with "live" drilling)

    i also never said medium was strong, only that you had to do as if you were fighting strong, throwing hard blows, so that when you need to apply that strenght, you can just loosen yourself a little more

    and i also never said our style is not dangerous, only that the practitioners fight violently.
    and it think it IS lack of conditioning for younger people, and "counter-conditioning" for older ones, as older students(esp.black belts) practice "free-combat"(ju-kumite), which is actual preparation for real street fighting.
    kyokushin and similar were developed to acomodate full-contact and know how to control it(kumite rules for my style and other older ones i think was developes when masters were just starting to develop comps, and took into account fighting each other, and had to filter dangerous techniques and decide what to do with the other ones), mine wasn't, and most students(around here at least) have such crappy ideas about MAs that they would end up killing each other literally, i train with a couple of those.
    most TKDers around here have joined McDojangs for that, as they think flashy and dangerous is the rule, and theyget beaten up or beat up other people.

    anyway this is degenerating into a kumite arguing thread and it's the kata article, so i'll stop now, we all think different? then so be it, no point in ruining a fine thread like this.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2005
  8. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Medium contact is not fighting strong like in full contact, otherwise it would be full contact.

    Are you basically saying that your style is too dangerous to be practiced full contact? Why is it that so many other arts - including kyokushinkai - don't find this? Of course some people are going to take hard knocks, do you think perhaps that most of these injuries are the result of a) accidents and b) lack of conditioning?
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2005
  9. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    so its like full contact.... but not? how do you fight "like" full contact but only at medium contact level? its one or the other.

    are you trying to show how "tough" your club is? because it comes off as the kind of place that gives martial arts a bad name. people getting broken limbs and jaws is NOT a commonplace thing (or shouldnt be at least) in any martial arts school. someone fighting 5 people in a row and being hurt so badly they cant move? are we supposed to be in awe of how manly you all are? If thats the way your school operates I can only hope you get found out and shut down.
     
  10. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    now that's just stupid, i'm just saying i've seen people get hurt in COMPETITIONS!, and you've never seen how the guys here fight, i myself consider myself a good MAist and i respect the rules, i've taken full-on roundhouses and knuckle strikes to the head from an angry guy to let him vent his anger because i know he needs an outlet for it, and i don't hit back.
    i'm not showing off that they're macho or tough, i just said that the guy abode by the rules and got a beating from people, because accidents happen, because they hit wit VIGOROUS APPLICATION, which again means you hit like you wanted to kill, but you control yourself.

    I already edited my last post, and that answers most of TST's post and some of yours, now let's stop arguing over kumite in the kata article please as this feels like you want to flame me and our sparring rules(not that i'm accusing you), but i Do accuse you of saying other people want to pose as machos because they talk about hard medium contact sparring, while YOU brag about how full contact is the only supreme rule.

    if i'm gonna get sin binned for this then so be it, i joined this forum to expose and debate my opinions without being thrown around like a rag doll, and i get treaten like if i were back at my school.

    my opinion

    fish of doom
     
  11. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Throwing hard blows isn't strong?

    As opposed to fighting non-violently?

    So why not do more/better conditioning?

    Then what's wrong with your school accomodating full contact?

    Again, surely that supports the case for full contact, to drill in realistic attitudes?

    I see no sense in stopping a discussion just because we have different opinions on something, otherwise it would be boring. Discussing kumite is relevant because kumite is the sparring, as in the pretend fighting. If people are doing katas in a completely different way to how they practice fighting, surely there is a problem?

    My overall point to you, Fish, is that your proposed solutions to the problems we've mentioned are only necessary for you because your club is unwilling to take the simple route - i.e. training really hard. Saying things like "oh well we don't do full contact because people would get injured through not being conditioned enough" only strengthens the case for training hard. The way to get really good at martial arts is to train hard to improve on your weak areas rather than just accepting them as they are and avoiding doing anything about them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2005
  12. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    oh please you're degenerating all of my answers, i don't want to discuss this anymore, reminds me too much of discussions at school



    "I see no sense in stopping a discussion just because we have different opinions on something, otherwise it would be boring. Discussing kumite is relevant because kumite is the sparring, as in the pretend fighting. If people are doing katas in a completely different way to how they practice fighting, surely there is a problem?"

    this is totally off-topic, that's why i want to stop it, it's like posting fencing stuff in the capoeira forum

    i won't touch this thread anymore, since you and ikken seem bent on bringing me down, when i just posted my opinions, and then you started asking questions, i answered with all honesty and you begin throwing stuff at me, i'm sick of this.

    if i'm gonna get sin binned then so be it, i may or may not deserve it, but i don't want to talk to you two anymore, you've rekindled in a minute of reading all the anger i have from three years of school bullies, and i'll end up trying to kill anybody who so much as looks at me if i continue arguing, so please stop!
     
  13. Melanie

    Melanie Bend the rules somewhat.. Supporter

    I'm sorry that you feel so upset about this thread. If you feel its better to bow out then by all means, I understand. Emotions are high granted but all opinions are valid and each will get their air time - so long as no one is derogatory or personal and so far I haven't seen any personal attacks.

    There appears to be good reason for all remarks, but maybe and please let me emphasize the maybe, they haven't been read properly. Perhaps take a step back tonight and re-read the thread tomorrow. This is an imformed thread - lets not ruin it now please :)
     
  14. Humblebee

    Humblebee PaciFIST's evil twin

    perservere and respect
     
  15. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    if you cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen
     
  16. Melanie

    Melanie Bend the rules somewhat.. Supporter

    Thats not helping Ikken :) Please :)
     
  17. Humblebee

    Humblebee PaciFIST's evil twin

    or go in the garden and take deep breaths
     
  18. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    i am respecting them, that's why i said i'd go out, else i'd be all over them.

    and ikken, please don't tell me to do what i already said i'd do, because that i consider personal.

    and in my opinion i'm more insulted by people saying things like "your style can't accept full contact because blah blah blah, than people insulting me.

    my priority in insults is my family, my friends, my martial art, my style and finally myself, and i know my limits and how i react when i cross them, because it's happened dozens of times, that's why i'm leaving the thread, so as not to explode in a screaming fit, and in doing so, my morality perseveres over my instincts of manic ear bursting.

    now please get this back to the original subject

    KATA

    not kumite


    fish of doom
     
  19. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    didnt you already leave?
     
  20. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Fish, we are discussing training methods here. If you are insulted by people preferring other training methods to yours, or simply making logical points that disagree with your opinions, then I question why you joined this site at all.

    You're not hearing me, Fish. Kumite is very relevant to this discussion because of the huge inconsistency between karate as seen in the kata and karate as seen in the kumite. Since the kumite seems to be so drastically different, it calls the point of kata into question.
     

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