Karate in MMA

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Renegade80, Aug 19, 2014.

  1. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    This man....... He understands.
     
  2. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    JWT your pictures make sense, but still rely on tiny rotator cuff muscles. I still feel that on a basic level, using it as a deflection is just as valuable. The problem is, people still think your going to use the whole two handed huge motion for it. You don't, from what I understand, you learn the motion big so you can do it small. Which means, only one hand and from a fighting stance. That said I don't agree with how karate as a whole teaches it, I think it is nonsense to practice techniques they way they do.


    So if there is no blocks in karate, how do you actually defend your self? Now before you mention it, I know how important movement is, so whats next? Do you even practice deflections with evasion? Do you deflect at all and only hope that your evasion is good enough and if it isn't just take it on the chin?
     
  3. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Rneo2 if there are no blocks, how do you defend your self? You make it sound like you just take the hit and retaliate, and hope to god you don't get knocked out by their first punch... Im sorry that's crazy. You have to have some system of defending attacks in any combative system.

    This constant assertion of no defense is baffling and a invitation to get killed on the street.
     
  4. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    These movements don't rely on tiny rotator cuff muscles, they are driven by the whole body through good biomechanics. As with any martial art good technique comes from correct biomechanics, the rotator cuff movement is just a minor part of what goes on with regard to lower body alignment and movement supporting full upper body movement.

    I didn't show the full movement in the pictures (as I didn't show the full sequence) but these are in the main two handed movements.

    Imagine, for the sake of convenience, a right arm age uke (upward receiver). The left arm extends in front of the body in a fast thrusting motion, as the left arm retracts (back to the hip in classic training) the right fist (or forearm) thrusts diagonally upwards from outside to inside (just like a good driving uppercut or forearm strike) and then as the fist goes above shoulder height the forearm rotates and changes direction to essentially hammer from inside to outside. I don't learn the motion big so I can do it small, that generally applies if I'm trying to convert a solid close quarter grappling application to a long or medium distance parrying or striking action.

    Here's the same movement in two handed application. Note that I'm being nice and not hitting Uke in the face with my extended left arm as I use it to cover for the haymaker. Uke's left arm is low in part because he's just illustrating a wild swing, but mainly to make what I'm doing easier to see.
    DSC01942.jpg
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    The power of the secondary (or tertiary) strike is augmented by the fact that Uke is being pulled into it as it goes out to him, thus increasing the impact force delivered.

    How do you defend yourself against attacks? Well the ones you only see at the last minute, you flinch no matter how much training you have had and depending on timing and positioning that will either be an extended arm protective motion or a closed arm head cover or simply a face scrunch. The ones you see coming at a greater range you use natural parrying actions, they form (as discussed above) a part of some trained Uke techniques. The ones you see telegraphed before that, you preempt. If you're struggling with this you may need to consider that I'm working at an average start distance of about 40cm.
     
  5. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    JWT, i am trying to understand what your saying but it does not fit with my experience. I was taught to use the uke, the primary blocking motion, from my fighting stance, with the smallest most compact motion possible. Just barely a movement, just enough to effect the deflection. Your telling me, using the uke in that fashion is incorrect even when they have worked for me frequently?

    Now Ill admit, that i do know that those uke movements are similar to and are stem cell movements for other things, like attacks and such as your showing with your pictures. What im arguing against is the notion that they can not and are not usefull for deflection.. My own experience, and that of the martial artists around me tell me other wise.
     
  6. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    I forgot to add, i cant tell what cover your using for the haymaker with your left hand. It just looks like your punching.
     
  7. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    I'm just commenting for now so I can follow the thread.
     
  8. Renegade80

    Renegade80 Valued Member

    I read a while ago that people who post and run are nicknamed seagulls: defecating on the thread then flying off. Your last comments made me think of this.

    I question your reasoning not because I don't understand what you are saying, it's because I thought the same a decade ago and have moved beyond your position. I did this by continuing to question the false assertions you claim as fact.

    Mangling Ian Abernathy's pod cast arguments will get you nowhere if you can't even differentiate stating facts and explaining them. Let alone trying to present his ideas to someone who is both aware of them and who independently came to many if the same conclusions.

    Ian's argument was that trying to argue against deeper application of kata for self defense requires the critique to present an argument at least as complete.
    Your problem is I am not arguing against deeper application of kata techniques and sequences, I am arguing that the simple applications made prevalent by the very master's you quote, are still valid if not the whole story.

    Had you gone back to the thread on OSS you would have found the holes I punched in your argument, from the faulty facts to the false assumptions. In assuming your dogma is absolute you miss the opportunity to grow through challenging that dogma.

    You present as fact that which are simply ideas. Your conspiracy theory about blocks being a device to hide true karate is dismissed with three simple words:

    Chinese Martial Arts. CMA styles from the length and breadth of China use blocks. Karate, real fighting karate translated originally as - China Hand.

    According to you, the Okinawan's who happily claimed Chinese patronage of their art, learned martial arts from Chinese teachers, patterned their techniques after the Chinese kata, but invented an entirely different way to use the movements and then used the common CMA explanation as a cover story to hide the art which they then taught in schoolboy form to university aged young men all through a world war?

    Occham thinks your beard needs a trim.
     
  9. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    just for the lulz imma take a stab at some of the arguments:

    "I simply pointed out they are not blocks, becasue karate was created for civilian self protection, not sparring or fighting. Has it been adapted for this purpose, yes it has, but the fact remains these techniques are not, and where not created as, blocks. if someone is "in your face" telling you they are going to glass you becasue you have spilt there pint it stands to reason there is not time to spot the attack coming, correctly identifying it, select the appropriate response, and then execute it before you get hit."

    1: we were not there so we don't have any actual knowledge of what they were originally designed for, just what they were transmitted as to certain people who then transmitted it to us. chinese whispers kinda throw a spanner into any attempt to say "this is original" (even though i'm pretty sure i've been guilty of similar comments myself).
    2: the selfsame techniques exist in CMA, and many of which are employed as blocks, but usually (IME) don't have a specific term labellling them as defensive movements right off the bat, which muddies the waters a little less by making them explicitly variable in function.
    3: as has been pointed out by others such as hannibal and myself, you seem to be talking about the kihon form of the movements, which is a training method for body mechanics. application is separate, and builds upon the motor foundation laid by the kihon (but must be trained separately as well, preferably with intermediate steps bridging it with the kihon). this makes the "selecting the appropriate response" issue less relevant (but not entirely moot. let's not go down the road of thinking defensive techniques are infallible :p), as you don't select a technique to do; you act, and the techniques you have trained will condition the way that action is carried out. let's look at it another way: do you as a karateka consciously think "i'll throw a tsuki at his face", or do you just punch the guy in the face? (which leads to what i meant in my first post by "proper karate striking, meaning that which is done after the opponent has been controlled sufficiently that the chaos of the situation becomes a negligible factor long enough for you o take a measured action*)

    *suddenly karate ni sente nashi! :3

    "You have to explain why it is a block. Occams Razor tells us that we should accept the version of events that makes the least amount of assumptions and the burden of proof is then on the other explanation to justify why their version of events makes the assumptions it does."

    option 1: you see a limb coming, and you put something in the way or bat it away. voilá, a block! usually this'll be a palm parry (teisho-uke) because humans like to use their hands, and our arms are usually outside of our centerline, or a rising motion (age-uke with forearm or knife-hand) if something is looping towards the head.
    option 2: you anticipate a strike due to a shift in body position (much harder to do, unless it's telegraphed as hell or you have a lot of experience, and you are clear-headed), and interrupt the motion, which may or may not be done as an attack (you can simply use the blocking position to jam the movement before it starts, or of course you can whack the guy in the face with it, whichever floats your boat).

    "If Age Uke is a block, then why is the other hand on the hip? No one has a reasonable explanation, so it is assumed it is "being chambered". Explain this assumption."

    1: i do believe the explanation i have been repeating for a few years is rather reasonable (although there is personal experience involved, so i have some bias in the matter): it counterbalances the amount of shoulder flexion involved in the majority of kihon techniques, and repeated and sustained shoulder flexion (and you ain't done krotty until you've stood 5 minutes in a static pose while sensei corrected the class :p) will wreak havoc on your shoulders almost as much as sitting all day on a desk will (and guess who did the latter AND did his hikite improperly, resulting in double shoulder trouble? *points to self* THIS GUY! :D). again, we can't know what the original purpose was (and note that karate-like hikite is also heavily used in CMA basics and in many forms, particularly in longfist styles), but that seems the most reasonable explanation to me (as well as pulling training and removing the need to train to elbow backwards). if we go full occam's razor, there's also the extremely simple and rather silly "well, the hand has to go SOMEWHERE..." :p
    2: once more going on a tangent and returning to the tsuki, the same applies, but it doesn't mean the tsuki isn't a punch. although in the context of the tsuki, more so than on the blocks, the hikite is also the exact opposite position to a completed tsuki, so it gives you a base to train tsuki from where extraneous movement and telegraphing can be immediately spotted and corrected, so that the tsuki starts nearly instantly, which can then be transferred to punches starting from other positions. as i said, not that applicable to blocks, since for example in the case of age-uke there's an outwards element, necessitating the hand to be drawn in and across the centerline in the basic movement (because of the whole "step sparring facing each other square on with only centerline tsuki" thing going on in super basic partner drills). still, though, might as well put it there while not using it.

    also, @kframe: just in the shoulder girdle and arm alone, you are missing the action of the lats, triceps, deltoids, and serratus anterior in creating the structure necessary to withstand any pressure at all with the motion (if you don't have it, it works neither as a defensive nor an offensive motion). the rotator cuff rotates and stabilizes, but there is much more than stable rotation going on in that technique (as i mentioned, it has a forwards element, which is massively strong, and a vertical element, either upwards or downwards, that helps direct the resulting force; if we consider the typical "keep the elbow and fist super close and swing the fist out and the elbow in" way of doing it, though, then yes, that technique can go self-fornicate :p). it also benefits quite a bit from footwork and rotation, which does help significantly in making it work (more so perhaps than for other blocks which are a bit more stable by themselves, anatomically speaking). imagine uppercutting or backfisting
     
  10. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    also, i'm stealing that occam beard trim comment for my sig, because it made me chuckle :p
     
  11. dandjurdjevic

    dandjurdjevic New Member

    I have a different view about "blocks". The first thing to note is that I, like Fish and others, use it lazily to refer to "parry, deflection, slip, jam, interception". The statement that "there are no blocks in karate" would imply to me that there are none of these. I can't imagine that anyone would really hold such an extreme position.

    I wrote an article on just this topic:

    http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com.au/2013/04/there-are-no-blocks.html

    "Uke" means to receive. You can interpret every single karate "uke" as some form of blow, lock or other attack. But in the end, you're missing the point that we all, sooner or later, receive attacks. And I believe that to do so well is a vital skill - particularly for a person who practises civilian defence.

    I liken it to having a look at all your cutlery and insisting that you can only see knives: there are no forks, no spoons - no things to "receive" your food - only things to cut it up. That would be a very strained view of your cutlery draw.

    You say "there are no blocks". I say "uke" exist. And they don't exist just to serve as "attacks in disguise". They "receive" attacks.

    If you choose to call such "uke" something other than the lazy term "block" (which we've "inherited" from previous incorrect translations of "uke") then so be it. Personally, I like to use the term "interception" (http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2013/06/enter-interception.html). Others prefer "reception". But this is all just a matter of semantics: no one I know thinks of "uke" as literal "block" - as in "stop with force" - and nothing else. And to argue against such a literal view would be to set up an especially silly straw man.

    If you insist that there are no "receptions/interceptions", then I can't say much more. I could point out that you will see "receptions/interceptions" (ie. "uke") even in MMA (as I pointed out in my article earlier in this thread) and about which I've previously written in detail:
    http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2013/05/there-are-no-blocks-in-mma.html.

    Maybe ap Oweyn was right when he said: some arguments are like playing handball with a curtain.
     
  12. dandjurdjevic

    dandjurdjevic New Member

    Fish, I agree with everything you say in general terms. But as to "palm blocks" I have a slightly different view (at least in terms of the contact point):

    http://youtu.be/hHtLqtDYZ8I
     
  13. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    nice. i generally think of what you show in the video as the main reason for using forearm blocks at the start rather than blocking with the hands (i'd honestly be surprised if any styles teach shuto, teisho and kake uke before at least jodan age, uchi/yoko, soto/uchi and gedan barai, for example), since if you miss, you still have the fist (with less risk of broken fingers) and the elbow :p

    strongly agree on projecting force through the palm regardless on whether you actually manage to block, but i would argue that applied blocks should always be accompanied by footwork and torso/head movement (but i'm disgruntled because i got penalized in a shotokan comp for bobbing sideways while a fist shot through the space where my face had been half a second earlier :p), which slightly lessens the potential risks in missing the block, and i would consider the forearm as more of a buffer zone than the primary contact area (missing in the other direction becomes less of an issue if proper body evasion is employed)

    as a side-note: amusingly, the horizontal palm you show at around 3:10 is the way shotokan does teisho-uke :p
     
  14. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Sorry to interject, but this caught my attention.

    Do you honestly have a hard time getting your palm to incoming attacks?

    I understand the forearm as a fail-safe, but it gives you far less options for counters.
     
  15. dandjurdjevic

    dandjurdjevic New Member

    In dojo style "kumite" where people bounce around at a distance looking for openings - no, I don't have a problem. This is what most people do.

    But when people are throwing committed punches from a close range - what I call the "melee range" (ie. "toe to toe") - yes, I have a problem.

    Most "toe to toe" fighting you see doesn't feature blocks because people are too used to their palm blocks - yet can't use them in the available time/space. For an analysis as to why this is the case see:

    http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com.au/2011/05/why-block-with-forearm-rather-than-palm.html

    But if you don't believe me, stand well inside punching distance (so that you you can put your knuckles on his/her chin but the elbow is still bent) - and start punching. See how many palm blocks you can muster. I guarantee you won't manage one. On the other hand, I use forearms to wedge/parry at that range every single training.

    Btw: this close range is how I insist on training now. Most people do their drills well out of range.

    http://youtu.be/lJZoCyqjbok

    I don't understand why you think a forearm gives you far fewer "options". Slipping your opponent's attack as early as possible gives you many more options for counter as you've caught him/her early. The element of surprise alone in having your attack slipped or wedged away can be quite hard to recover from. Consider this "soft parry" using the forearm and the potential follow up defences (in this case a literal application of the taiji form):

    http://youtu.be/ifFKl9IRoUo?t=1m6s

    Where some people get stuck is that they assume the palm will remain in contact with any attacking arm after the "palm parry": it won't. The best you can hope for is to slap the attack (not follow up with a grab and kote gaeshi, etc.). By contrast, wedging the forearm actually gives you access to a slower moving part of your attacker's arm so that, if you want to, you can actually lead into grabbing it (perhaps sliding down to the wrist if you need to). Imho grabbing a fast moving fist/hand out of the air is never an option.
     
  16. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Sod toe-to-toe, I've effectively used palm parries nose-to-nose against people. Not in kumite (I don't really know what that means), but in real life when they're trying to smash my teeth out the back of my head.

    I read your blog page. I think you have some correct ideas, but entirely disagree with your conclusions. If you like I'll explain why, when I have time.
     
  17. dandjurdjevic

    dandjurdjevic New Member

    I mention "toe-to-toe" only to indicate the range where a punch is able to land with maximum force. I'm glad to hear that you can use palm parries against punches "nose-to-nose" and in "real life". Write an article sometime and I'll read it with interest.
     
  18. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I'm saying you're not really using the Uke. You are essentially just parrying with a tiny rotator cuff movement and body shift online and telling yourself that because you have done something that resembles the tail end of the Uke technique, you have done the Uke. Whether big or small, with the exception of Ude Uke (which at its tail end resembles a closed hand flinching/pushing parrying motion), Karate Uke techniques do not work as deflections against fast unpredictable attacks launched at a realistic range.

    You say this has worked for you frequently, but in what context? In the context of medium and short range martial art v martial art attacks? I can see that. But against any form of fast unpredictable attack, if you think that you are doing Age Uke or Uchi Uke or Gedan Barai to deflect (as opposed to naturally slipping and parrying and swatting like any untrained person) then you are kidding yourself. I'd need to see video of it because in over 20 years of training I've never seen it done outside the contexts I've shown in my photos where the Uke is used for a very different purpose. I've seen people 'think' they are doing it, but I can (with a video) show them that they are not. I understand where you are coming from because I was taught that way too, but it is an illusion.

    With regard to what cover I'm using for the haymaker in the last set of pictures, I'm just throwing my left arm out in a protective open handed motion (replicating an extended arm protective flinch) using the arm and a head duck to protect the side of my head and deflect the punch. If the punch was rounder the same action would mean the punch would continue round over the top of my head. The same arm (in that picture sequence) then pulls on the other person. In that sense what I'm doing is the standard two handed Uke technique dynamic.
     
  19. Renegade80

    Renegade80 Valued Member

    This is really just a perspective issue. You either view kihon uke techniques as a mechanical training device for the application of a range of smaller practical techniques, one of which is a forearm deflection whose final position matches that of the kihon technique, or you don't.

    Whether you call it a parry or an uke, we are all on the same page as to what works. The rest is just philosophy and is only relevant to how we as individuals join the art together.
     
  20. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    JWT your not making sense. How can it be an illusion if it worked for me? I use outside to inside soto uke frequently, and have on occasion used Age uke. The context was free sparring, so idk about your guys but I usually don't know what attacks are coming, our free sparring was not choreographed.

    So if im not using chudan uke in sparring, what am I doing them, because it sure as heck looked and felt like chudan uke... Deflected the attack like chudan uke should..

    Do you have any supporting proof that the primary blocking motion, done small and compact with one hand from a fighting guard does not work? How did you come to the conclusion they were a illusion?

    What makes you think they were not meant to be used as parrying motions in the first place. I firmly believe they were ment to be soft deflections, just like I am using them and strangely work just fine.

    Honestly for you to tell me im just swatting like a untrained is insulting.
     

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