Kajukenbo video, offense or defense?

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by BGile, Oct 20, 2006.

  1. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Thank god for protective equipment :rolleyes: ;)
  2. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    I NEVER attend a Kajukenbo/Wun Hop Kuen Do session without a cup!
  3. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    I think there is a tremendous differance in the young men and boys entering dojo's now then there was in the 50's - 70's.
    When I was growing up in the 50's -60's, after school fights were a weekly occurance. Not really vicious. But good old boxing matches to let off some steam and vent a little anger. Maybe that's why anger didn't build up to the point of school shootings back then. And most of the times the combatants were friends again the next day.
    Boxing was actually a high school sport in the California of the 50's-60's. And just about every boy back then played tackle football every chance they got. Even after the parents would complain to the school officials about all the torn clothes, we'd find a isolated part of the school ground to play tackle, and change to "touch" when some teacher would come by.
    Boys grew up knowing what it was like to hit and get hit. I've never been hit in the martial arts or in my 32 years as a cop, as hard as I was hit when I was a high school fullback. So contact in the martial arts was never a issue with me and most of the guys I trained with.
    Now days most high schools struggle to recruit enough boys to field a good football team. And boxing teams are a thing of the past. And now days boys earn "academic" letters.
    I can't believe the number of 20-30 year old male students I get who tell me that they have never been in a fight in their lives!
    And then there are the 10 year old students who can't do 10 good push ups because the heaviest thing they ever pick up is a gameboy.
    So yes, as a Kajukenbo instructor it's my obligation to prepare these students for the unlikely occassion when they may have to actually fight for real.
    They need to experience realistic fighting situations in a controlled setting. They don't have to break bones, rupture kidneys, or dislocate joints. But they have to learn how to handle contact without it hindering their ability to effectively respond back.
    Martial arts is like insurance, the more you pay (in sweat and pain), the more insurance you get. Even though you hope you never have to use it.
  4. Pacificshore

    Pacificshore Hit n RUN!

    Martial Arts is and has been a contact "sport" for lack of a better term as any other contact sport out there. There are times when you will get injured even under the best of contolled evironments...that's just the nature of the beast ;)

    To never experience any form of contact or slight forms of pain during your journey, is to never fully experience your chose art. Just my 2 cents
  5. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    I'd say comparing it to a contact sport is appropriate in terms of how it should be trained. Gary's comments on this subject are on more than one thread, and I guess my coments towards him can seem out of context if one only reads this one. His original complaint had nothing to do with age, but rather contact of any kind. He said that he was watching a young man being hit by his instructor and it ****ed him off because one doesn't need contact to train in the martial arts. Since Gary has never got past the white belt stage in all of his years in the martial arts, I found it more than a bit odd that he was setting himself up as an authority on the subject. Most white belts don't have very much contact in training due to the fact that they are too busy learning the basics to engage in sparring.

    The problem with remaining a white belt for life, like Gary has, is that one never actually gets tested. You get to hang out with folk, but you never put yourself on the spot and let others see how good you are. Plus, you are never required to learn anything except the most rudimentary part of the art.

    I've seen this type before and they go around claiming a lot of various training, but have never been tested in any of it. Then, when they come out and start in on the merits of various ways of training, it gets silly. If they were asking questions, no problem. But to come off like an authority is different. It's like someone that still has training wheels on their bicycle telling Lance Armstrong what's wrong with his training methods. i.e., "Well Lance, you and I have been down many of the same roads on bicycles and I personally don't think you need to train to exhaustion to improve." etc.

  6. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Danjo you are truly a despicable individual. Nough said, regarding that thought.

    If others see in me, what Danjo relates, speak up, for he is working the crowd, pathetic. That is fine Dan. It will not be fogotten. Thanks for making it clear for I have given you the benifit of the doubt, but no longer.

    John, I agree with your summation and where you are coming from but I could never see Danjo as a person I would want to train or give information to, he is not intuitive enough to know when to stop his cheap childish stuff.
    So could he contain himself when hurting someone and be responsible??
    I doubt it.


  7. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I don't care if you are a whitebelt for life, just as long as you keep training with sincerity... I'm cool with that.

    Some of the things you say makes good sense to me, but it would help in some other cases if I did not have to read every one of your posts on every thread to know where you are coming from.

    I guess I could start with this question for BGile: Do you feel that "one doesn't need contact to train in the martial arts?"

    If you do feel that way, is it that you feel that no one ever needs contact or is it more of an issue that one has to be selective in who they trust to train with?

    I've read where you have talked about injuries, but coming out of training with permanent damage is considered excessive contact for training by just about everyone except a few that need that level of training to perform their duties (e.g. only a very small minority would say that coming out of training with injuries is necessary). However, there is always the risk of injury or worse and therefore safety is important.

    Now just for my benefit, I don't believe that you were intending to say that contact is never good, you even stated something about pain is a good motivation for learning. Obviously, to have physical pain, you have to have some level contact.

    I'm probably putting words in your mouth, that is not my intention. I'm only in slight disbelief that a debate has gone on this long between BGILE and others about the necessity of contact in training. I don't think ANYONE is saying that you can have zero contact when training with a partner and that is enough. I do believe however, that the level of contact is what is a possible point of debate.

    I will say only one thing about this. I was a black belt in Goju-ryu and I was knocked out by a kick to the head in competition. That was many years ago. Since then I've been hit and kicked in head probably harder, full contact. I've seen stars and been dropped to my knees at times, but I'm always trying to protect myself. I'm never just taking a hit like when I was knocked out the first time. I'm dropping my chin and using better technique and instincts to protect myself.

    Without that contact training, I feel it would have been very hard for me to develop technique to protect my vitals.

    The only debate is how much contact is enough and when and with who. That is really up to the person and the situation.

    In my humble opinion, that last statement was uncalled for.
  8. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Dan mentions,
    I've seen this type before and they go around claiming a lot of various training, but have never been tested in any of it. Then, when they come out and start in on the merits of various ways of training, it gets silly. If they were asking questions, no problem. But to come off like an authority is different. It's like someone that still has training wheels on their bicycle telling Lance Armstrong what's wrong with his training methods. i.e., "Well Lance, you and I have been down many of the same roads on bicycles and I personally don't think you need to train to exhaustion to improve." etc.

    I'll say,

    I believe training to exhaustion is the proper way to train. To train your muscles to excel. I have been trained that way since a young teen.
    I have also gone through boot camps and academies. Been devoted to the arts since 17, I am now 65 this year. If you are to read Dan's thoughts you would think I only bring to the table his opinion. Laughable to say the least.

    Wado read my bio in the last couple of pages in the post that was closed about legit rank. Dan has read it and if he does not believe it that is fine.

    I mentioned earlier and you don't think it is called for. I believe he is a very ignorant person. The more he posts his outlandish thoughts the more I am convinced. After reading my bio let me know what you think?

    Contact is something that the person learning should set the pace for not the instructor. Now if the instructor was as ignorant as Dan I would still have the same conviction I have already mentioned.

    If I join the service and go into there training program I will follow it, they are paying for my education and injuries.
    These schools that are not even based at a location by most standards are a major problem in todays Martial Arts, I believe.
    Most of these Rec-room locations are not learned enough to teach, let alone injure others and then not take care of the bill's.

    John Bishop is truly a good instructor I would think by his own admission as well as his web site. Would I bash his learning and his abilities, never. Can I disagree? Yes.

    I remember one time as a very young Tackle in Pop Warner football, a fullback decided he could run over me. My position was tackle his was fullback. He was tackled end of conversation.

    So do I think I have been honest in my thought's? Yes, if you want to know them, you will have to read this thread and the one I have mentioned.

    I am not a simple white belt that is for sure. LOL

    Gary :woo:
  9. Pacificshore

    Pacificshore Hit n RUN!

    BGile and Danjo:

    Let's try to keep your personal dislikes out of this thread and any other thread on MAP. I think both of you make good points with regards to your knowledge and various experiences. I'm sure the other members are/will tire of this on-going bickering. This will only lead to the thread becoming usless and therefore locked!

    I have not had to lock so many threads since becoming a Moderator for this section on MAP, but somehow it seems to be happening more and more with these types of personal issues with certain members. If you must disagree then so be it, but keep out all the personal stuff.

    Thanks for your cooperation
  10. BlackCatBonz

    BlackCatBonz New Member

    Dan......you seem to be focused wayyyy too much on the old black belt and how long it takes people to get them.

    I'm sure you're no slouch when it comes to martial arts......but bouncing from one to another really doesnt teach you squat, but it does tell people that you have a commitment problem.
  11. BlackCatBonz

    BlackCatBonz New Member

    go ahead and lock the thread now.
  12. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Well now that wouldn't be fun now would it?
  13. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Well, coming from people like Gary and Shawn, I think I can live with myself. ;)
  14. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    What if I were to tell you I thought you smelled funny?

    What if I were to tell you that smell came from your stinky kata? :D
  15. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    You shouldn't listen to your wife so much bro. :)
  16. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    This means war! :woo:
  17. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    I can only speak for my own training, but inducing pain is only a pleasant by-product of what I am really after, which is control. Do you really put so much reliance on pain compliance?? yeah those all cause pain but is that the strategy? For example if you cannot move your arm because of the position I have contorted it into (mechanically locked joints) and therefore you cannot attack me, does it matter if it hurts? Sure, I would LIKE it to hurt you, but it is not necessary...

    and just to nit-pick... I've been put to sleep by triangle chokes that didn't really hurt... just..... go...... to ....... sleeeeepppp....
  18. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned


    Yes I feel that the shooting character does mean somthing very similar to war. Strategy would be more like it. It will be interesting to see how this thread fares.
    Let us say this for a small example of intensity and where ones thoughts lay in the matter of physcial contact in todays surrounding's.
    Most countries have a standard and have laws which handle it. But we as humans seem to be able to reside within them or not.
    So society has set down location's for the ones who are breaking the law's and are removed from society.

    Now some of us have been around longer then others, that is not important if you look at someone who is not able to comprehend the way of Strategy and a Warrior mentality. I am going to use Musashi for an example.

    To put it mildly you would not tread on that person if you were of sound mind. You would not bully that individual if you cared for your pursuit of life as it is prior to coming across a mentality such as his.

    So did he scuffle all the time or fight for the fun of it with others, no...
    He made a way of his style by the standards that were there at that date and time.
    When we look at his life we see a time of change and a time of his life changing with it, if he had not changed at the time he did he would have been hunted down by the edo period mentality and killed.
    Simple really, times and the way of strategy, changed big time in his country and he changed with it. Happened about his 30th year of life.

    So if we knew nothing about the changes in the country you would think he just decided to change of his own free will, not true.
    He was a person who valued his ability to be in the stategy he liked and used it for his way.

    Some as on this board are not familiar with the training techs of old or new but only by their own life's experience's. That is good.

    So let's look at the way we train for battle. Do we train to be injured for the next contest? Or have we come to a state of total ability to understand the consequences of a decision to battle with others and have developed over years a way of handling yourself and have become confident in your own abilities and way.

    Do we need to train and get hurt to understand this, Yes! Does it have to be continuous, no. Does it have to be a training tech or a lefthand sucker punch.
    (not the normal right hand one since many train that exclusivly and are not to be considered worthy of discussion now). Training is a very incomposing word among those who have done this for the last 50 years of their life.

    Now if the tight-end (NFL) was used as a dummy for practice in the upcoming million dollar effort and was injured and could not be availiable for the game, how would that be viewed? I don't think very well by the powers to be. Has he gone beyond that need? I think so. What he needs is to be in the best shape he can be to make his team and him the winner on sunday. Not to be plauged with injuries and be the big fan at the bar with his war stories and not be able to take care of ones self any more due to stupidity.

    So yes most of my thoughts are now coming from experience and abilities to still be able to care for myself and others who decide to cause me problems.

    Did I get there with out proper training? No. Did I take sum lumps and bumbs Yes! Have I life long injuries Yes. Am I dangerous in fighting and taking care of my self? Yes, do I want to get hurt tomorrow while proving I am still able to take a good punch? No!!!

    Simple I believe.
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2006
  19. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    In regards to the nit-pick, I agree most sleepers don't hurt, although it' rare for them to have much discomfort. As for mechanically locked joints, those are only locked because the person doesn't want to dislocate, break, etc their joint which will cause excruciating pain. So in the end it comes down to pain. Also, I while I don't rely on pain compliance, my goal is in a fight is to make your nervous system so overwhelmed it either a) shuts down (aka a KO), or b) decides moving against me is a bad idea due to the pain it would cause (mechanical lock). Thus, in the end it is still all about the pain.
  20. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    "Now, Kind-hearted people may like to imagine there is a skilful method of disarming and overcoming an enemy without causing great bloodshed, and that this is the proper goal of the art of War. However plausible this may appear, this is an error which must be exposed; for in such a dangerous thing as war, the errors which result from a spirit of kindness are the very worst. If one party is willing to use force unsparingly, without concern about the amount of bloodshed, while the other party refrains and acts out of moderation, the first party will be victorious."--Von Clausewitz On War

    It always makes me shake my head when people speak of fighting as something other than a miniature war. I don't believe in moderation in fighting. I believe that fighting must be brutal and all out until it is over. Now, "Over" might be one person running away, screaming for mercy, or being unconscious. In extreme cases, it might mean that one person is dead. One cannot rely on one's attacker to be merciful or moderate. If you can rely on that, then it is no longer a fight, but rather a contest.

    I don't "like" to get hurt in training. But I do accept the inevitability of it when training seriously. I don't believe that one can train seriously without risking injuries, bruises, bloody lips and noses etc. Of course one should make an attempt to minimize these things, and as one's skill improves, the less one will get hurt. However, the idea that one can improve to any real extent without jumping in and going for it is naive.

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