Kajukenbo "The original MMA"

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by BGile, Apr 16, 2007.

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  1. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    Sure does.

    I am not so sure about this part when it comes to the other branches. I think WHKD and Tum Pai are more closely nit and organized in terms of branch heads. Ch'uan Fa I think has several when you consider DelaCruz, Gaylord, Togisala, etc. Original Method, I think there was some attempt and a head, but I think that has fallen back onto Sijo's lap. It gets more complicated the more you look.

    But thanks for clearing that all up.
  2. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    Yup, it definitely gets more complicated the more you look. You are right about Ch'uan Fa as well; I think canonically DelaCruz is at the head, but in practice that isn't so much the case. Glad I cleared things up as well.
  3. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    There's no back-peddling. I don't think that you understood what I was saying in regards to real fights. Also, your post made it sound like people went to the bouncers for advice rather than the cop, not to you. It sounded like you wre saying that bouncers knew about real fighting and cops didn't.

    So, do you advise to your LEO and bouncer students to sprawl, ground and pound, or just grapple and then apply a submition hold?
  4. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Most of my LEO friends are higher ranks in my Jits class. But no, what I do show (to whom does not train Jits) is how to clinch properly, nice and tight protecting yourself and pinning them down immobilizing them so they can't grab for weapons or attack you back. Submissions like armbars, kneebars and figure-four toe holds and heel hooks are quite useless IMO for a police officer. Instead learning how to take someones back both standing and on the ground, and having proper base so you don't get tossed around by some musclebound suspect is what is more important.

    The jits guys I know always talk about past training they've had, and the hassle of filling out use of force papers and needing to explain why they punched the guy in the face, when they simply could have controlled the criminal and avoided all the hassle, and saving that guy some medical bills.
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2007
  5. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    And yes there is back peddling. I went through the same **** with my old Kempo bosses. The constant redefinition of what constitutes a fight is a sure-fire sign of BSing, and usually is more you rationalizing your beliefs to yourself moreso than trying to convince or explain them to me.

    There is no such mincing of words or hair splitting when you really train. You train, drill, workout, spar, and fight, and when the **** hits the fan you act in accordance to the situation at hand, whether it be a drunk relative, or a drunk stranger, or a roided ex-MMA fighter on PCP at the local supermarket.
  6. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Honestly, how many of these "real" fights have you had?
  7. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Don't I need to first fully understand your definition of "real" before I could even begin to entertain such a question?

    For conversations sake, I'll say I never met a roided PCP-influenced ex-MMA fighter.
  8. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Well, let's say something between the MMA roid freak and wrestling with your drunken relative.
  9. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    I'd say a dozen or so. Only counting instances where I was hitting to hurt, and not trying to just stop someone from hitting me.

    On my standard of "realness" I'd say only 3 of those were something I'd call "REAL" (as in I felt I was in serious physical danger if I didn't come out on top). But one could argue if I never trained, then a higher number of those instances could have been a serious problem for me....oh damn hair splitting! If only I could just find a way to train with the focus of getting better, and not dwell on paranoid scenarios such as street fighting and the countless ways a "self defense" situation could go down....But how could my training survive without those delusions?
  10. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member


    The problem I have with your position is not your belief in aliveness, or training to be better. My philosophy is you will fight how you train. The better shape you are in, the more punches you have thrown as someone fighting back, the better.

    However, you seem to think things like eye pokes and groin shots are low percentage moves that aren't worth training, or aren't possible to train. Now, I agree that they won't end a fight. But they are a great tool to have to turn the tide in a fight and should be practiced. Groin strikes in particular can be trained (everyone in WHKD, and all of Kaju for that matter) wear cups, and groin shots are legal 100% of the time. You learn to be good at them, and to avoid them.

    Similarly, training some of those paranoid scenarios are important. If you don't train for scenarios where it is near pitch black, where they have a weapon, where there are two people, etc, then the first time you will have encountered such a situation is when it is happening for real. That is never ideal. A large part of any fighting is learning to adapt to the situation/opponent. You do this by practicing such situations and practicing adaptation.
  11. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    What I think is when you possess enough skill to actually employ eye gouges, and throat strikes, you won't feel the need to execute such tactics. Kaju/Kempo teaches them as equalizers when they are clearly not. Teaching them as such is dangerous and irresponsible. So excuse me for raining on everyones delusional feel-good parade.
  12. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Boy lots of post's

    Dan T mentions:
    Good discussion. I am sure Gary is reeling that we have trolled his thread though. How's it feel Gary! AHAHAHA!

    I'll say this and then read all the other posts.

    As far as the avoidance and evasion of the discussion it is actually the first good sign of what Kosho is all about, no confrontation. :) Trying to deflect by confusion or just plain not fighting or accepting the situation, and going along with it. Its only the web. :rolleyes:

    All of the deflection is a good sign that you actually do part of Mitose's art. If you studied it at all, you would see why Mitose claimed that it was a large percentage of his art that was borrowed, when he confronted the new art that was being displayed as something else. They just did not do the part you are doing ie: avoidance. :D ie: as to avoid and dance around it. :p

    It is an interesting side track and I'll bet it has heated up. :D

    I really am enjoying it. :D True avoidance of a question that is legitimate, is a sign that agreement has to be there IMHO. ;)

  13. GIJoe6186

    GIJoe6186 Valued Member

    This has got to stop. Danjo, what your saying makes absolutely no sense. Tom Ingargiola (Im guessing this is the Tom you are refferring too) is good at what he does. He does not however represent your idea of Kempo at all.

    To invite KempoFist to his Wed night sparring class to prove Kempo can work is wrong on so many levels. Tom is a kickboxer. HE trains at Bellmore Kickboxing Academy. In fact he is a pro kickboxer and won a title back in 1999 in the USKBA. He also is a grappler too. He also has other guys he trains in kickboxing. If KempoFist went down there, he would be fighting other kickboxers and grapplers, not Kaju. Sadly this is true of many TMA schools that cant hold up. White Tiger did this too. ITs a horrible system but was given some credibility by training some of the instructors in kickboxing. KempoFist has a friend who could kill me standing up, he admits it was the kickboxing and not Kempo. In fact, I think they have a guy teaching them Muay Thai on the side, then they can realy show there Kempo working huh?

    The reality is that MMA is a great way to train. Its alive or dead. We choose alive.

    I train in MMA, I do BJJ, wrestling and Muay Thai. I train according to a specific rule set that limits what I can do and this is why I will excel in the cage AND the street. Until you understand that limiting yourself makes you better, we will have threads like this.

    The great Jigoro Kano, who many look up too, used this as the basis of Judo. There are certain moves which, if practiced at full force, can not be safe. So we practice only what is safe to spar with at full force, thereby making us capable of using high percentage moves.

    What about dirty tactics? Well guess what? My ruleset makes me more able to hit them then your style. You see, I train to hit not just a jaw (which gets me a KO to win a fight, cant fight if your KOed) but to hit a moving target. Its very easy to change my target from your jaw to your throat.

    Do you have to practice flipping on a light switch? You do it without thought. What if I took a switch and put it at head level, then one at groin level. Now most switches are at the chest area a few feet off the ground. If you saw these oddly placed switched, would you miss hitting them? Would you have topractice because there at different hieghts? No. Its a switch and you have the coordination to hit it at any level. Well I have the skills to hit moving targets. Any moving, covered up target that is resisting me at full force.

    Im not writing this to be mean or in anger, just pointing out many answers to the debate.

    BTW I am from Long Island too and have a few years in Kempo and taught it too.
  14. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Yeah I knew Tom kickboxed, wasn't sure if he grappled too. In short, he does himself a disservice by granting credibility to LARPers who don't train the way he does. I say the same for Liddell and to a lesser extent GSP who Krotty LARPers look up to as their poster boy in MMA.

    In short, training moves that only work statically is pointless. Training moves that work in motion but working them statically is pointless. Training moves where you hit someone a number of times while they stand there is pointless.

    Unfortunately what happens is you realize your training boils away from the art whether it be Kaju or Kempo, and it turns into some form of kickboxing and wrestling/grappling. Considering that is what a fight consists of, I'd rather train in that environment than LARP. And spending more than a few minutes telling someone that they can knee the groin in a thai clinch rather than the inside of the thigh (which is done for safe training reasons) or they can stick their fingers in someones eyes while in a tight top mount rather than just pound their face in, is just a waste of time.
  15. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Hi Joe mentions:
    As far as your post to Danjo, I also train for what I refer to as 'the ringer', not the 'smuck' or average Joe as you put it. I train my people the same way. This way, if the 'ringer' comes along, fine, he's the guy I trained for and if it's the average Joe, well, then that's fine too. I'm sure Danjo trains the same way.

    I'll say,

    I try to the best of my older body to train like you are mentioning Joe. I keep in mind always my surroundings and what or where or how people are acting and always carry my self with a warriors mentality like is mentioned in many of the arts of Warriorism. Does that mean I will win...NO... But I am ahead of most who think they are kidding themselves by picking on me. :D
    But I'll avoid as a rule. Maybe :Angel:

    So how about a mention about the history of the topic in the book :p

  16. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    Actually, Liddell is trained by his Hawaiian Kempo instructor John Hackleman. However, I've been in Chuck's school and you're right. His school offers Kickboxing, wrestling and grappling. No Kempo at all. This is why I have strayed away from this type of training, except for the Kung Fu and Taiji, which I have my reasons for training in those arts.
  17. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Actually maybe all the above.
    LOL, I like the thread but on a side note lets talk about History of the art.
    Maybe a word why it took John Leoning 30 years to get where Sijo did in a few. :D
  18. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Politics? Arbitrary rank based on something besides performance? John sucked? All of the above? :D
  19. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Ummm...I wasn't the one that mentioned Tom or whomever you are referring to.

    Too bad you guys are 3000 miles away. Be fun to meet up and see your theories put into action.
  20. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Now there is a real good answer if I say so myself. Besides when working with boxing gloves while sparring you arn't going to be able to practice those.

    All those who have had to use those dirty, various tactics say I to them as one I= how many times you have used dirty tactics. :cry:

    But those were when I was in the school for boys and wayward girls :eek: Pre-teen. When I became a true Boy Scout it is many more... :D As in be prepared and do what comes natural as in preteen. :D

    I don't want to have to tell you all my war stories as an adult you would never believe it anyway, so why waste bandwidth. ;)

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