Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by BGile, Apr 16, 2007.
I can't wait to see those videos Sifu.
Gary, Jim, Jason, Dan, etc. have all made good points here, I tend to agree. I would like to add that people sometimes confuse 'fighting' for 'self defense', I'm not implying anyone who has currently contributed to this thread but this is more for those who 'surf & read' these threads and maybe 'newbies' to the arts. I am also posting this so that this thread doesn't get off track as to what system is better for fighting and so forth.
If a school is a fighting school and trains those for sport only that's fine and those fighters will excel in street confrontations, no doubt, due largely to this type of rigorous, live training. However, this method of training is not for everyone, actually, it's mostly for the minority and many, if not all those who excel in it, didn't take it because they were getting their books knocked over by the local school bully. They had 'heart' and could handle themselves quite well in most cases without any formalized training.
If a school is self defense oriented, that's fine too. If a school offers both programs, that would be the route to go, 'best of both worlds' with a more diversified program to offer the public. My point being, self defense training is like police defensive tactics training but takes it to another level since the student is not neccessarily trained to fall back on a pepper mace, baton or firearm. My explaination.....
In police work, you are not trained to be able to physically 'take' your opponent-in a fight-per se. I'm speaking as a LEO training officer. It's not who can beat who or who's the tougher s.o.b., that mentality can get a cop in trouble and yes, it's hard to put aside male ego in dealing with this. You will be taught the reality that the average LEO will routinely run into people on the street that can hand them their head in a fight. An LEO has to pull off whatever he or she has to do to take the suspect into custody, especially in a situation with no backup nearby... which happens more often than not. In other words, they can 'cheat' and use the 'tricks' of police defensive tactics. I was listening to a case in court a friend of mine was involved in when one of the defendants was complaining that the cop used his baton while breaking up a fight in which this guy assaulted the officer. The judge quickly interjected and stated: "In this country we pay, train and equip police officers to win, not to lose."
With civilians, the goal is not to apprehend the assailant but to escape and survive the incident with the least amount of injury sustained. In other words, 'hit and run' and if they choose to 'stay and fight' that's their personal decision. That's when fighting comes into play, with of course the sport aspects left out and the street put in. I have gone to incidents over the years where a victim fought back and got away injuring the attacker, an attacker who would have easily laid the smack down on the victim in an all out fight. Most of the incidents were untrained people, some had a little self defense under their belt. It's like Johnny and Bobby got in a fight after school and Johnny beat him but how's that? Bobby is way tougher than Johnny, can't be. Ya, but Johnny kicked him in the groin first and then punched him out....he cheated, lol. The 'tricks' of self defense, something that can work for the average person who's no fighter, that's how self defense should be taught and if the student has the dual capacity to be a fighter also, all the better! This is where the Kenpo/Kempo/Kajukenbo and other martial arts come into play, if, of course, taught properly. Let me also add, as far as an LEO goes, he better be just as comfortably trained on the ground as he is standup because 'sh_t happens'.....not to mention we intentionally go to the ground when handcuffing a resisting suspect anyway.
Now, let's get back to the thread at hand - Joe
Great post Joe. I completely agree.
The difference between Fighting and Self Defense is in Fighting you intend to win, in Self Defense you intend to get away. The other 98% of training should be in lockstep. You develop fighting skills to defend yourself with. End of story.
Glad you agree. I'd feel bad for him if nobody stood up and cheered after that speech.
Very good video, you are a good Sensei. You are playing with them and having a good cardio at the same time and practising and so are they. Very enjoyable.
But to say that is all you do is not correct. Just like the short DVD of Garcia's. It is just a portion of what they do. I have that DVD myself so I know what is on it. It like other arts are to be viewed in its entirety and not just a 3 minute round.
I have to tell you in all honesty, you need to make sure that when you tell them to stop they will, or else someone is going to get hurt. (you or your teen)... When the big dog can no longer prove he is the top dog it changes quick, and then students will change their location or they will need an attitude adjustment.
(You see it all the time with real dogs and horses and humans. When the youngster is deciding to hurt and not play they are hurt and leave, or die).
I have seen many encounters that started out fun/play or practise and end in someone hurt. I am sure you have seen it also. But I thought I would mention it. With big guys when it goes bad quick, it is very ugly. Many many many times it is exactly what I am mentioning. Then the doctor visits then the surgery. LOL NOT...
Why I am not doing it anymore, the sparring. To old, and to many times been hurt or hurt others. If it is a fight, fine so be it. But not a sneaky hurt you, I am sorry routine. No No :bang:
Then they go around and tell others they are tougher than the instructor Then the instructor hears about it and has to hurt the person or tell him to leave. Not a good deal. It really never goes away either.
They just part and are gone.
Again a very good video and my compliments.
How about the history of the book, any comments?
I'd also like to mention, good post Joe.
Anyone wnat to comment on the history of the book, the time frame, or the number of years it takes to become a Black belt, or a 5th/10th or 15th degree? In this date and time??? We have sparred, now lets defend.
I disagree about the training. If you're training for a contest like an MMA bout then you have to develop a certain level of fitness aerobic and anaerobic. 3 5 minute rounds etc. against someone of similar skill and preparation. Most non-contest fights are totally different. While anaerobic conditioning still helps, the aerobic is uneccessary for the most part as the fight will not last that long. The fighters are not at all likely to be of similar skill level. The first one to get off will likely be the victor and it's usually a three to ten second blitz that will end it. At least that's what I've seen in bars and other non-contest fights. The MMA type of training is irrelevant in that situation.
Isn't that essentially what I just posted? After all, like I just said, the majority of people aren't looking to be nor are cut out to be trained fighters, yet, they should not be denied some skills that could protect them and very well save their lives. It has happened in the past, it's happneing now and it will continue to happen in the future. It's these people that need self defense the most, not the Chuck Liddells of the world. - Joe
Hello Dan T.: Dan if you have a problem with me, take it to a pm or better yet, you have my e-mail address from past correspondence, use it, no need for the sarcasim here unless I (unintentionally) did something to you to bring it on. From the context of our past e-mails, I didn't think we had a problem. - Joe
The difference between training for SPORT and training to Fight or Self defense is you gear your gameplan for the rules. Many would claim I train at a sport-minded school. But in reality most of my rolling is without time-limits, and I apply and receive submissions that otherwise would be banned in competition. We don't keep points, but rather roll to work on our technique for an undetermined amount of time.
For example, at the last TD, we had a guy who is training for an MMA bout. Unfortunately this is NY where MMA is not yet legalized, so it's a bastardized ruleset between kickboxing and MMA. We didn't strike to the head on the ground, nor did I follow up when I dropped him without a takedown. But the only time you train like that is when preparing for a competition.
This is true. - Joe
True if it is not fair, and anger is involved it becomes ugly. In this day and age it is easily esculated to a killing or further injury to the parties.
If you are paid to be there and take care of things it is different. Usually if you handle it well all parties will be fine, or one will never be allowed back in that bar.
To many variables. To much injury and not enough training just to be in good shape, and of course there is the evil of the drink the bullies and the good or bad and of course the ugly of it all. If you are a bully expect to die young. I have noticed.
And how many of you are into paid competition? How many made there living breaking up these things we call fights? That is the difference. Intelligence is very important also When to stop or start or never! Or quit what you are doing and find another job or hobby.
Nope I said something very different than you said. You started to say what I said, but then back-peddled because you didn't want to lose your ability to claim rights to dirty tactics.
You disguised it as a LEO vs Civilian issue, but in reality you are trying to save your repertoire of dirty tactics from being viewed as anything but low percentage schoolyard tactics. I love how every Kem/npoer always uses the phrase "when trained properly" when describing their LARPtastic self defense moves (that may or may not contain "cheap" or dirty tactics), when they could just drop the ego, man up, and start really training real skills that translate into real ability at fighting, self defense, and with extra work, "sport fighting" if they so choose to.
My few of my friends are bouncers for a local bars, my other friend is a local cop. Guess who they ask for advice on fighting?
So how about the topic and the book information and the history and all the things that need to be discussed also LOL...
Go for it. I gotta go take care of some stuff. I'll be back in a few hours perhaps to check the train wreck.
Actually I am going to train for a few hours and will see what happens also. Just for one point it takes more than 6 years to start a new system and become a high ranked BB I have noticed in the last 40 years or so, except in a few organizations. :Angel:
Prof Shuras: Your posts are very long winded for me and tend to run the same idea over and over. I also feel like you pull the "I was a cop" card a lot. When you posted on the Cafe you used this a lot as well. I am not sure why you use that when it has little to no relevance in the topic of discussion. My sarcasm should have been done in private. But now that it is out, might as well just say it in public. I have no problem speaking my mind in public. Which I suppose gets me a lot of "fans." You most certainly don't have to change how you write your stuff. However, I most certainly can't promise to not make snotty remarks. HAHA. Good times.
Gary: Thanks for the compliments. Most of the time the teens work just for a good standup then right to the takedown. From there it is a pin with submission available. Pain compliance is great for kids at school. They don't have to smash the other kid up and they can still defend themselves. They look good and don't have to get suspended with CA's No Tolerance Fight policies.
Danjo: You assume a lot. You assume that the person who is attacking you doesn't know how to fight, isn't conditioned, or has no experience. With the sheer volume of MA schools out there now, do you really think that you will be facing someone who has no experience in some form of fighting? If I can fight a trained athlete for 15 minutes, what makes you think that I can't beat the crap out of some out of shape shmuck who's only training is watching UFC on Spike? The attitude you present seems lazy to me. I don't think I will get attacked by someone who can kickass, so I won't train to that level. I am not worried about the average Joe. I am thinking about guys like Prof. Harper coming to smash my head in. Talk about motivation!
Good discussion. I am sure Gary is reeling that we have trolled his thread though. How's it feel Gary! AHAHAHA!
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