Kajukenbo Clips

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by John Bishop, Oct 4, 2006.

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  1. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    You seem to be bringing up points that are confusing because what you ask for isn't possible. There is a difference between technique training and application.

    I think what you are referring to is when a school concentrates so much on technique training that they neglect good application training. The reason I say this is your statement "but I bet 9 out of 10 of those pretty techniques would turn to garbage under live fire."

    The statement of technique turning to garbage is generally from inexperienced with what is being presented that expect technique to function as it does in training. It isn't the technique but the principles that drive the application in real situations.

    Application is going to be involving timing, movement, conviction, attitude... etc... all the basics of things that you cannot "see" but come from experience.

    Rather than look at the technique in a video as if that is application, take a step back and look at the experience, are these experienced martial artists or not? Can you tell, maybe not easy to tell from a short video, but it isn't that hard to spot experience.

    Experience, however, is one of those things that you got to have some to see it in others or at least it helps a lot if you are experienced.

    I know of at least three Kajukenbo schools along the West Coast of the United States that actively are involved in MMA cage fighting. They can do this because Kajukenbo principles are much the same as MMA, the idea of fighting skills for all ranges is older than Kajukenbo but it was in the original core of Kajukenbo back from the late 1940s, twenty years before Bruce Lee and JKD, thirty years before UFC and MMA.

    Whether these Kajukenbo schools are teaching only Kajukenbo and fighting in MMA, absolutely NOT. They are doing what works for them to be able to compete in MMA. And I don't mean just a few fighters, some of them run their own matches, one of them has monthly fight nights where his students and others are matched up in ring under Muay Thai, MMA, or submission wrestling rules.

    My point is that the principles are much the same as well as the train with contact attitude, that's why they STILL teach Kajukenbo even though they participate in MMA.
     
  2. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    Ok. I'll concede my "crap" comment was a bit uncalled for however I'd just like to reinforce my opinions in general by reminding people of the following...
    My first point being..

    Why train for a situation which supposedly looks and feels 'real' IE a knife assault; when the environment (illustrated in the knife defence clip) is flawed.
    See my comments above.
    There's nothing controversial in my comments only truthful opinions based upon first hand experiences, take them of leave them, that's your choice.

    Kind regards and apologies for any offence taken at my earlier comments

    Dave
     
  3. TheDarkJester

    TheDarkJester 90% Sarcasm, 10% Mostly Good Advice.


    If you cannot apply a technique under stress, then what are you training for? Isn't that the point of training? If what your saying is the stuff they teach doesn't apply to free fighting, that says in my mind that its garbage, useless information to be disregarded and discarded. The techniques I train in mantis and P.K. are refined under stress. My training partner is aiming for me and if I don't parry or evade.. he will hit me.. and vice versa.. I've had several instances where I've nailed my training partner damn near full force in the solarplex or the jaw. If you're not training alive with resistance.. you're kidding yourself into thinking you're actually training for a high stress hand to hand situation.


    I mean for chrissakes.. technique to application is not that far off a concept.. My style of kung fu, Muay Thai, BJJ, Filipino systems.. they all do it! Hell there's even a video on Bullshido right now of TAIJI CHUAN WITH RESISTANCE being used in a Lei Tai format!!! Now if you're telling me that Taiji can do it and this kajukenbo can't... :rolleyes: ...maybe you need to seriously reconsider your training goals.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2006
  4. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Tim Larkin should be ashamed of himself. Please do not mention him as a credible instructor...hell a credible anything. He needs a healthy dose of reality before he goes and markets himself as an RBSD instructor with his, "VIOLENCE IN TEH ONLY ANSWER, FIGHTING ARTS ARE USELESS USE VIOLENCE" garbage. I'd give anything to get him for 5 minutes on the mat.
     
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    No, what I'm saying is that I can probably get you some clips of Kajukenbo people fighting in MMA cage matches or similar events.

    You won't see Kajukenbo in action, you will see people fighting in an MMA cage match. Is this good enough for you?

    To see the Kajukenbo, you have to look at the principles being used. You will see many techniques, but very few if any are exclusively Kajukenbo techniques, they could be from virtually any martial art.

    It sounded to me like you wanted to see Kajukenbo in action, I said that is impossible as application is NOT limited to one martial art. If it were, we would all be training only in that one martial art because we would NEVER need anything more.

    Edit: After re-reading your post, it also could be that you are asking about "live" training. Is that all you want on video? Shoot, I don't know if I have any video for that stuff and I can't speak for others, but our Kajukenbo school does full contact sparring, rolling with grappling and with striking, bag work, pad work against alive partners, we also make heavy contact during technique training. Many Kaju schools train this way, some much more than we do :eek:.

    There is nothing special about this training, it is just part of regular training for us and Kajukenbo whether it is more the MMA style like we do or something more old school, doesn't matter as long as it is done sincerely and gets the job done.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2006
  6. TheDarkJester

    TheDarkJester 90% Sarcasm, 10% Mostly Good Advice.

    Well then hell yes by all means! Lets see it! Keep in mind Rebel I'm only bashing on the clips shown.. Like I said.. I don't have a problem with Kajukenbo, only the video clips being shown. I would have made the same remarks about ANY style or system demonstrating their techniques in such a noncompliant manner.. Even my own system if it was presented in that light, so don't think of me as a style basher without rhyme or reason. You know damn well if video clips like that were posted up Bullshido they'd be torn apart without the slightest bit of compassion.. I mean isn't that what martial arts are for? To separate the bull from what works? the frauds from the people actually eating, sleeping and breathing martial arts?

    But those knife defence techniques.. *shudder* ..Seriously.. please stop teaching students those. I'd feel terribly guilty if I was an instructor knowing what I taught my pupils landed them in the hospital or worse.
     
  7. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

  8. Pacificshore

    Pacificshore Hit n RUN!

    I did not mention that he was credible, but only using his DVDs as a reference point in terms of demonstration of techiques.....and since it was the most recent "non-traditional" dare I say art....I chose to use it for the mere purpose of video footage ;)
     
  9. TheDarkJester

    TheDarkJester 90% Sarcasm, 10% Mostly Good Advice.


    Nice. Just wish I could watch those while I'm at work. :) But why might I ask, are you dragging this off topic?
     
  10. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    Dear Mr. Bishop.

    Perhaps you need to take a de-sensitivity pill.

    Chill out.

    I've already posted my apologies for any comments which may have been seen as harsh or indeed rude.

    Regards

    Dave
     
  11. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    Since the topic appears to have shifted to people evaluating systems based on short video clips. I thought it would be nice to see the training techniques from the systems that the two most vocal critics train in.
     
  12. bcullen

    bcullen They are all perfect.

    You might want to go a little further back in the chain before passing judgement, check out the founders, in particular Adrian Emperado and his school. These people were doing MMA and NHB style training even before Bruce Lee showed up on the American radar and made "Kung Fu" cool.
     
  13. TheDarkJester

    TheDarkJester 90% Sarcasm, 10% Mostly Good Advice.

    So you're dragging it off topic? We're discussing the video clips being shown, not how your 8th degree black belt in Kajukenbo self got all uppity that someone dare critique your art.

    Now I'm gonna veer this one back on course because you sir, obviously have no idea on how to do that. The video clips don't show techniques demonstrated in an alive fashion. Thats why we're critiquing them.. If you have better clips.. POST THEM! If you have knife defence clips from Kajukenbo that don't involve placing a knife on the defenders chest and then slapping the **** out of the attacker and passing that off as pragmatic weapons defence... THEN POST THEM.

    All you are doing is showing everyone you're a ****y old man that can't handle conversations about something you should be knowledgeable about.. I mean you are an 8th degree black belt right? Or are you just a liar? Surely you of all people can provide some justification as to why these demos display a complete lack of aliveness... I mean does your system not train in defensive tactics towards its own attacking methodology? Do all Kajukenbo students freeze up like deer in headlights when struck in class?

    Changing the goalposts in a conversation is the action of a liar and a fraud. I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are neither.
     
  14. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    You forgot to include Muso Shinden Ryu Iaido. [which I also study]

    I would like to see Iaido against your art. ;)

    Regards
     
  15. TheDarkJester

    TheDarkJester 90% Sarcasm, 10% Mostly Good Advice.

    And some pekiti tersia too! If you can't find any please put up any Kali, Escrima, or Arnis! I mean if you're gonna drag me and Dave off topic, at least do it right.

    Ginunting or Barong VS Kajukenbo.

    50 bucks says this fight lasts no more than 3 1/2 seconds. :D
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2006
  16. Pacificshore

    Pacificshore Hit n RUN!

    Hmm

    About the only one I see at the moment losing control is you :bang:

    I'm all for critique, but really let it be constructive. From the way you went about it, it would sound as if you are an expert in just about everything. If you have nothing further to offer regarding this post then move on!

    This will not and I repeat not turn into a "my style is better than your style" bash :woo:
     
  17. Tomas_Drgon

    Tomas_Drgon Valued Member

    No need to overreact. If you don't want to hear peoples opinions, don't post the clips.

    The kids clip is good.

    The adult clips are silly for a very obvious reason: the big freeze.

    I'd like to hope that Kajukembo can do better than that.

    Tomas
     
  18. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    Nope, not dragging it off topic. If your going to discuss and evaluate systems based on video clips, then lets look at what qualifies you to be so judgemental. How you established your expertise on realistic live training. Or why we should take your "critique" seriously.
    Let's look at clips of your systems training.
    Now did I say that Praying Mantis was unrealistic and worthless as a self defense system? That nobody was doing live training? That some of it looked like silly dances? And that the satin pajamas would be torn to shreds the first time any live training took place?
    No, I figure that the techniques and excercises in the clips have some training value to the students participating in them. And that there is probably a lot more to Praying Mantis then I am seeing.

    I didn't know the requirement here was all video clips posted can only be live, realistic, no holds barred, full contact, etc.
    In a attempt to elicit some friendly discussion , I posted some of the few Kajukenbo clips that are on YouTube. I didn't say anything about anyone's system or training methods being inferior or superior to others.
    So if the aikido gentleman decides to post some clips of his training, he should only show live training where the attacker resists, and has his elbow dislocated?

    Now are there more knife defenses in Kajukenbo? Of course. Do I have some video clip on hand right now to post? No. I don't, and I don't think very many other instructors video tape most of their classes. But I'm sure myself or someone else can locate some, or shoot some.

    Now as to realistic knife attacks, I've seen a few in person, been subject to a few, and viewed hundreds on video. But I would never presume to make a statement as to what constitues "realistic, real world knife attacks". That's as stupid as saying 95% of fights go to the ground.
    One gentleman said he had some experience in custodial settings. Well, most prison knives are not capable of slashing attacks, since they are mostly improvised stabbing instraments that have been sharpened to a point, with little or no edge. Sometimes you will see razor blades attached to something to make a slashing weapon. But then these usually lack a stabbing point. So, knife attacks in a prison setting can be differant from knife attacks in a street setting. And then their's the attacker's experience or lack of it also. So, nobody can make a blanket statement that real knife attacks only happen certain ways.
    Now, will someone put a knife against your chest or throat and rob you? Maybe not in England, but it sure happens a lot in California.

    So is this how you get your point across and win arguments? You revert to name calling and insults from the safety of your keyboard. Is this some kind of teen age blog, or a serious martial arts discussion board?
    I've already said that these clips were taken from instructional videos, not training sessions, cage fights, or street encounters. Just like the clips of your system I posted are for the most part instructional.
    And I've also said that our training does involve continous full contact sparring, grappling, and mulitple attacker senerios. But techniques have to be learned in stages, from in the air, to against a non-resisting partner, to against a resisting partner. Do boxers get in the ring at first, or do they first learn to punch on a bag, in the air, shadow box? And then graduate to a live resistant partner?

    And I'm to assume what about you?
     
  19. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Well, my quest for Kajukenbo MMA and UFC footage free on the internet is failing horribly. Either you got to be a member or buy something... gosh, you mean the internet and unlimited bandwidth isn't free? Darn. :cry:

    Well here is more some posts to show some highlights of Kajukenbo folks in other competitions. Good stuff but it doesn't show the whole picture. Take it for what it is, I ask no more than that:

    Some point sparring between Kaju folks (hehe, the last kick to the groin is very Kaju, but I guess it wasn't allowed in the rules):
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvQkW07QASs"]Adult Fighting Brn Blt Div 3 - YouTube[/ame]

    Some grappling between Kaju brothers:
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Xh1p0nnA8Y[/ame]

    And just for the heck of it, some Kajukenbo technique (I really like this one):
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmr9V5DUfVE"]Kajukenbo Video - YouTube[/ame] - Warning: Compliant partner in this video. Danger, danger... compliant partner!!!! Beware!!!
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2006
  20. dianhsuhe

    dianhsuhe Co-Founder: Glow-Do

    ?

    Jester- Have you no respect? Do you talk to your Praying mantis seniors this way? You are judging Sigung Bishop based on clips he posted of other people?

    Do you know what they teach in Kaju and many other "old-school" martial arts? I don't know if it is considered "Alive" or not but it is called RESPECT...

    You should respect your teachers, classmates, training partners, and other martial artists.

    If you think Sigung Bishop is a "liar" or phonie--- DO SOME RESEARCH BEFORE ATTACKING HIM! The guy was a cop for 30+ years, he has seen more s**t than most people. He is a high ranking instructor in a system known for producing tough and RESPECTFUL practitioners, and he volunteers his time moderating on here, helping others learn about MA.

    Where do you come off? You are arrogant, judgemental, and immature in your posts... Where I train if you insulted ANYONE this way it would not be tolerated. Criticism is fine, obviously that is the idea, positive or negative but attacking someones character, and name-calling, has no place in here!

    In the world of martial Arts, training 12 months in 2 styles (even if ALIVE the whole time- whatever the hell that means) makes you the equivalent of a 4th Grader. And you conduct yourself on here as one.

    James
     
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