Kajukenbo Clips

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by John Bishop, Oct 4, 2006.

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  1. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    Here's a few Kajukenbo clips for anyone unfamiliar with the system:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkY3u-4Oiqc"]Kajukenbo: Supervivencia callejera - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33mcQivFCZs"]Kajukenbo - Angel García - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cU7LOa5NdU"]Kajukenbo Angel García - Defensa contra cuchillo. - YouTube[/ame]

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4459797750213139154&q=kajukenbo&hl=en
     
  2. TheDarkJester

    TheDarkJester 90% Sarcasm, 10% Mostly Good Advice.

    Clip 1) Unresisting crap
    Clip 2) More unresisting crap.. I don't know about everyone else, but I'm not gonna let my arms hang that low and let someone beat on me like that.
    Clip 3) That was some of the worst knife defence clips I've ever seen.. I'd be ashamed to teach those to students.. First off.. no one ever just pulls a knife and puts it like that to your chest for the hell of it.. if they pull it, they're gonna slice you. That instructor is going to get his students killed teaching rubbish like that
    Clip 4) Awwwww How Cuuuuuute! They're play fighting! ;)

    I am not impressed.. these clips rank up there with Shaolin Do and Shou Shu. These guys would be absolutely demolished by a kyokushin, hung gar, thai boxer or san shou fighter.
     
  3. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Wow...that was a harsh response....and that's coming from me...jeez.
     
  4. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Professor Bishop, that last video brought a smile to my day. Nothing like taking numerous unanswered knees, only to fire back a right cross to the jaw. Nothing like watching two 6 year olds do it :D
     
  5. eyebeams

    eyebeams New Member

    Interesting transitions to takedowns and leglocks in the first one. Are these formal techniques or variations?
     
  6. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    Nah I wasn't impressed either, I know fairly junior Karate yudansha who perform better, more direct applications with their opponent actually moving and somewhat fighting back.

    With respect to the knife defences.. I have nearly ten years experience of working as a Prison Officer in high risk establishments so my opinions are slightly biased to a predisposed environment, however; anyone carrying a knife (or should I say uses one regularly to perpetrate crime) will rarely hold it to the body (especially to the front of their victim), they will either slash/cut immediately to disadvantage their victim or approach from the rear.

    I've witnessed rear attack knife assault and in almost all cases the stabbing was accompanied with a rear naked choke (type) grab, under those circumstances by the time your brain is registering that you've been grabbed around the neck, you've already been stabbed. Hardly any knife carrying criminal is going to expose the fact they have a knife to their victim before they've used it because to do so gives away an element of advantage/surprise. Its also been my experience that people who do actually present a knife in a threatening way as part of a confrontation, quite possibly don't have the resolve to use it in the manor they depict or suggest. At the end of the day however, it all boils down to who your dealing with and you can't legislate for people you don't know or can't reason with.

    Now, to my limited Japanese language skills, Kajukenbo isn't actually a Japanese word so, I'm a bit perplexed how a person can hold a dan grade in something not indigenous to Japan.

    Ah.. after a quick Google

    Karate
    Judo
    Jujitsu
    Kenpo
    Chinese Boxing

    And this... The Kajukenbo prayer created by Frank Ordonez

    Almighty and Eternal God, Protector of all who put their trust in thee, Accept the humble homage of our love and faith in thee, The one true God. Bless our efforts to preserve the integrity of our United States, A nation founded on Christian principles. Enlighten our rules, Guide our lawmakers, Protect the sanctity of our homes. And bless our efforts in these exercises, Whose sole purpose is developing our bodies, To keep others mindful of thy commandments. Give us perseverance in our actions, That we may use this as a means to keep closer to you, The one true God,in the name of thy beloved son, Jesus Christ our lord, Amen :rolleyes:

    Regards

    Dave
     
  7. Jon Wilde

    Jon Wilde New Member

    Terrible. When my brain catches up to how truly awful that was, I'll pass out wherever I'm at. I'm getting into bed just to be safe. :cry:
     
  8. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Well, coming from someone with 9 whole months of Praying Mantis Kung Fu, I'll wait till you've been around some more. I notice that you don't actually train in the styles that you admire eh?
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2006
  9. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Well, not everything can be as street effective as Aikido or Iaido :eek:
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2006
  10. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    Well, I spent 32 years in law enforcement. Been attacked with knives, boards, rocks, and shot at. But I never saw the need to train to defend myself against a downward sword strike like my aikido friends do.
     
  11. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Not to mention that no one ever cooperates with a move in Aikido eh? Those ukes are resisting and non-compliant right?

    I took Aikido for six months. I OWNED the black belt instructors when I talked them into free sparring me once and all I had then was Shotokan. Of course I never sparred anyone that was expert in Samurai Sword drawing techniques, so Iaido might be more the real deal stuff ;) .
     
  12. dianhsuhe

    dianhsuhe Co-Founder: Glow-Do

    Wow

    Harsh criticism...

    I really was impressed with the clip I saw (I watched #1 only so far). The Speed, flow, footwork, and take-downs all looked sharp to me.

    With all the HORRIBLE clips I have seen on these boards I find it hard to believe how negative you guys are about this one...

    The Kajukenbo folks I am familiar with are generally considered some of the tougher MA'ers around. The art was BORN from the streets of Hawaii before it was even a state for crying out loud!

    As for "Dark Jester", what exactly is your frame of reference for your "critique"? If you really just have 9 months of Praying mantis under your belt and you are bad-talking Kaju- you must be an ill informed Howlie... :eek:

    And how did you squeeze Hung-Gar in between Kyokushinkai, and Thai fighting (Muay Thai)?
     
  13. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    They appear to be a mix of formal techniques plus some things that may come more from Jiu-Jitsu, so I guess that would be called variation. The movements look very much like Kajukenbo, however.

    Kajukenbo is a martial art that is a mix of multiple different martial arts from Karate (Tang Soo Do), Judo and Ju-jitsu, Kenpo (Chu'an Fa, kenpo karate), Chinese Boxing and American boxing, and Eskrima as well as whatever else has been added to the mix as time has gone on, including in many schools BJJ, Muay Thai, and Jeet Kune Do, etc. So what distinguishes kajukenbo from other martial arts, is not the techniques but it is more the movements that are somewhat unique.

    IMHO, you can usually tell if something is Kajukenbo like by the movements. Firstly, Kajukenbo technique is very primative at the core. Primarily attacking vital areas with hammer fists, chops, forearms, etc. Not unlike an anology of aiming for a pin point vital spot and using a sledge hammer to hit it, so even if the vital area is missed, it still hurts or breaks something nearby. Multiple strikes to vital areas stack the odds in your favor.

    Secondly, beyond this core, any of the areas in Kajukenbo can be developed further. One could branch out more in the kenpo (Chu'an Fa) or conversely more into the jujitsu areas, or more into FMA (e.g. Eskrima), or something else. The reason one can branch out so easily from Kajukenbo is that the core techniques are an integration of many principles from the different martial arts.

    Kajukenbo movements (not all but most) follow a sequence of combat principles involving blocking (not getting hit) combined with attacks to stun the opponent, the stunned opponent is locked (which includes a standing break usually), then unbalanced and taken down. Various ground attack is used to finish from there at the discretion of what is needed in the situation.

    The techniques could be FMA footwork, boxing combinations, Muay Thai knees and elbows, FMA limb destructions, karate and jujitsu breaks and locks, Judo takedowns, kenpo dance of death, and submission wrestling, etc.
     
  14. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    LOL... where did I mention or compare in my critique of the videos, to the arts I study ? Nowhere !! Straws and clutching spring to mind :rolleyes:

    I offered my honest opinion no more or less. Oh and BTW whilst you were a LEO, I've also served 13 years in the British Armed Forces, Theatre of operations such as Northern Ireland, South Atlantic, UNPC so I too know what its like to be shot at. ;)
    LOL... whatever, rest assured you'll never catch me claiming it either but then at least I'm honest, unlike the crap in the videos.

    Laters.
     
  15. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    I'm torn on this. First of all, yeah I feel that the criticism has been too harsh, BUT I do share the sentiments of disdain towards compliant demonstrations where you kill the person 6 times before he hits the floor. The thing is here, my background as you could guess is Kempo, and you see ALOT of stuff like this in there. I really don't care if you do demonstrations like this to show striking areas, off-balancing concepts, takedowns etc... in sequence to give ideas, but the key here is to back it up in a "live" environment. From what I've seen and heard, Kaju guys, especially Professor Bishops students do just that.

    Also, I can't speak for all of them, but some of these are not students of Professor Bishop's but rather Kaju guys from overseas that posted on youtube.
     
  16. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    Hey, there just video clips. From what I can tell they are clips from instructional videos sold in Europe. In fact one of the clips I didn't post, they stop in the middle of the technique to reposition everyone for the camera.
    There's plenty of live full/hard contact training in Kajukenbo. In fact more then most systems.
    And nobody here can tell me that Muay Thai, Kyokushinkai, MMA, etc., do all their training live. They do katas, they do shadow boxing, they jump rope, they punch and kick in the air. And they also have unresisting opponants when they're first learning/teaching a technique. And even when their demonstrating a technique for the camera.
    I really question the experience level of people who can evaluate a system by a few 30 second clips.
     
  17. Pacificshore

    Pacificshore Hit n RUN!

    I agree as well...how can any art on video be evaluated properly in such a short amount of time. Video footage such as the ones posted only show a small aspect of what the art is. The way they were filmed was for the purpose of a demonstration and nothing else. My buddy just the other weekend was showing me DVDs on Tim Larkin's Striking techniques....if anyone has heard of Larkin, he was one of Jerry Peterson's SCARS instructors. Now Larkin has his own deal. The point being is that the DVDs showed various ways to strike/attack an assailant. However, in demonstrating the strikes, the "assailant" to was "compliant".....why because it is meant for instructional/demonstrative purposes. Now since Larkin can be classified in the RBSD realm, does that make his DVDs of what he shows better than any others out there?? Try not to be so short-sighted, and yes do take what you see, read, or hear with some grain of salt......but do keep an open mind as well ;)
     
  18. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    The purpose of the video clips is obviously to demonstrate techniques, not show how Kajukenbo operates against someone that is resisting. The techniques should be evaluated as such.
     
  19. TheDarkJester

    TheDarkJester 90% Sarcasm, 10% Mostly Good Advice.

    Well I tell you what.. you show me a video that isn't crap of Kajukenbo and I'll retract my statement. That example was garbage. Would it make you feel better if I said I had 20 years of mantis under my belt? Would it change the fact those videos were not alive and performed with ZERO resistance? No I don't think it would. You don't have to be a grandmaster at whatever-fu/do to realize what you're seeing is rubbish. It may be a great style, but until I see otherwise..

    And furthermore.. I did not slander Kajukenbo... merely the demonstration in which was shown. Perhaps this style produces some damn good scrappers, but those clips don't do much convincing of that fact. Show me where I specifically slandered Kajukenbo. :)

    No but I do have friends that train in those arts I mentioned. And I guarantee those clips would produce some big chuckles. Once again.. I don't need 20 years under my belt to know that what I'm smelling is turd.


    Tell you what you two.. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and let it prove itself. I'm just sick of styles that look so damned great on paper but can't measure up when asked to. NEITHER of you can honestly sit there and tell me you'd respond like that student being demonstrated on. Sure the person demonstrating had some good flow, but I bet 9 out of 10 of those pretty techniques would turn to garbage under live fire. Lets see some Kajukenbo under stress... Better yet lets see Kajukenbo VS something besides kajukenbo.

    XOXO

    Val
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2006
  20. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Critique is no big deal when it comes to video. You can't please everyone all the time, that's for sure.

    What tends to happen, however, is people will focus only on either the negative or the positive. I compare this attitude to that of a Broadway review where the critic can make or break a show based on the review of opening night.

    This ain't Broadway folks. At most we have a video clip of a few minutes. With something so short, it really shows only a few things, a short "message". I was taught when reviewing something short, to both look at the good AND the bad. Imagine your own student or training partner demonstrating a technique or a kata... you would TRY to tell them the good AND the bad afterwards to give them both information of what you liked and what you didn't like.

    Video review (for all but the last one with the kids sparring)...

    The bad
    1. not realistic opponent
    2. not realistic attacking
    3. not realistic technique

    The good
    1. good power
    2. good flow
    3. good attitude


    What I see in the videos is demonstration of technique. This is NOT demonstration of fighting or application. The primary things I look for in technique is the body mechanics (power and leverage) and the flow. Both the power and the flow looked good. In addition, the attitude was good, no doubt a lot of what was shown did actually make contact and hurt, but control was used not to permanently damage the partner.

    What is missing is a demonstration of application, which involves generally one key component, a "live" opponent that resists as if in real combat (at the appropriate level for learning purposes). In addition application requires timing, control of distance, protecting one's self, and motion (momentum and unpredictable movement).

    Taking the context that the video is a demonstation of technique, one has to know enough to make the transition from technique work to application. That transition is only hinted at in the video, it isn't spoon fed to the public.

    The application is that the technique is used to weaken and stun the opponent, this might be one or two or ten dozen strikes and other things. The technique might show six hits, but the application could be any number in reality, just so long as they are done in a fluid manner as per the flow of the technique so that it is a continous attack.

    After weakening/stunning, the application is then to control and unbalance and/or break. This might be a quick technique or multiple strikes combined with locks and chokes.

    Following the latter, the opponent is brought down to the ground and finished. The application might be that the opponent is already out of it by then, or they might still be fighting back but they should be hurting or else the techniques failed.

    -------

    Is it technique or application? What is the good and the bad?

    What would you say if it was your student in the video?

    I only ask that these things are considered before posting critique on video clips.
     
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