Judokas & Jujitsukas both?

Discussion in 'Judo' started by Syd, Jan 8, 2004.

  1. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    Hey Hybrid,

    I spoke to Warren the other day, couldn't have been a nicer guy. He's invited me to come and check out one of the Wed classes and I'm planning on doing that next week.

    It's great actually to have someone here who trains at the club. What you have said about using the Judo to round out the throwing and ground work is exactly where I have ended up in terms of my thinking on the whole thing. Taiji has all the striking, joint locking and stand up grappling as well as some take downs so Judo will be a nice balance to the bottom end of my fighting needs.

    As for jjj throws being nastier.....how so.....any decent throw that makes you land in the solid concrete in the streets will hurt.Bad.

    As far as all the material I have read and many of the people in both Judo and JJJ have told me, this is true. Ofcourse there are throws in JJJ which are simply not permitted in Judo because they are too ugly. There are Judo people who go to JJJ schools and admit freely there are many throws that are not permitted. This is not to say Judo doesn't have tasty tosses. I am keen however to train Judo and will study other throws outside class as needs be.

    Another thing i like about judo over ju jitsu is the (at least at my school) heavy emphasis on controlling your opponent.

    Have you studied JJJ before? Which school and how long did you train for? I like the idea of the emphasis on controlling. When you say controlling however are you talking about groundwork only, or are we talking about standing work also?

    I mean really heavy emphasis every throw has its own way to control your opponent so that you can make sure he lands safely or face down in the mud if you want.

    Sounds great man, I've got a mate I train Taiji fighting with who is interested in checking the Judo out also.

    As for compeition judo being essy.....thats what you get if u get 2 decent grapplers in a grappling contest.

    What you have said makes allot of sense when you put it that way, it's heartening to hear that actually.

    In a real situation the judokas opponent wont be trying to grapple back. Neither will he be expecting to be thrown (unlike the judo comps where the people know that their opponent is trying to throw him/her.)

    Gotcha, well said.

    And you are a good taichi fighter which means you are a good stand up fighter...why not just learn the part you lack in(grappling)?

    Indeed, I'm planning on coming down next week sometime on the Wed night session. Which days do you train? Maybe we could meet when I get there. How long have you been training at the club, whats your current level and do you compete?

    Best, Syd
     
  2. Hybrid_Killer

    Hybrid_Killer New Member

    Hi syd as for whether u have done jjj before...i did it for a year and a half at a small club in sylvania.



    When i say controlling i mean stand up and groundwork.
    As i said each throw its way of controlling.

    as for what days you should train...i assume you are an adult so i say wedensday.There are adults classes everyday i think but wednesday is good for people starting off.(wednesday 7:30-9:00)

    I have done judo for 6 years and have competed a couple of times(there are grapplers way above my level in class tho).I usually come on saturday and wednesday but i busted my knee in tae kwon do so im outta action for a bit.But hopefully ill see you there when i get back.
     
  3. Jim

    Jim New Member

    HK, you should go to class next Wed just to say hi to Syd and make him feel a bit more welcome.

    Syd,
    The rep doesn't matter so much as you getting along with them as well as it seems. Good luck.

    Don't forget to let us know how things go.
     
  4. Hybrid_Killer

    Hybrid_Killer New Member

    Good idea Jim! Where are my manners :D
     
  5. Jim

    Jim New Member

    PS - one of you should take a digital cam for MAP gallery... ;) Make sure it's okay with Warren and the rest first though.
     
  6. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    Hey Hybrid

    ...i did it for a year and a half at a small club in sylvania.

    It wasn't with Sonny Ikeuchi was it? Warren was telling me about a Japanese guy out that way who taught both Judo and JJJ that he trained with for about 4 years. How long did you train JJJ for and what made you leave?

    When i say controlling i mean stand up and groundwork. As i said each throw its way of controlling.

    Ok gotcha.

    as for what days you should train...i assume you are an adult so i say wedensday.There are adults classes everyday i think but wednesday is good for people starting off.(wednesday 7:30-9:00)

    I was asking what days you train rather so I could come and say g'day. But your right, being an adult and a beginner it would be the Wed's.

    I have done judo for 6 years and have competed a couple of times(there are grapplers way above my level in class tho).I usually come on saturday and wednesday but i busted my knee in tae kwon do so im outta action for a bit. But hopefully ill see you there when i get back.

    6 years is a fair whack of time, you'll have lot's of answer for me then. ;) I had a double knee strain recently which I hated having to convalesce over Christmas, the worst time!!! Sympathies... what exactly did you do to the knee, whats the actual diagnosis?

    See you there sometime, best...Syd
     
  7. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    Jim,

    The rep doesn't matter so much as you getting along with them as well as it seems. Good luck.

    Quite right there, I guess that was already a given for me. Ofcourse it might not be as much fun training with a bunch of great guys who's Judo isn't that great either. *L* But from experience it's even less fun training with people you don't get along with...been there done that. Funnily enough sometimes you don't get the full personalities of people until you've been training somewhere for a while.

    I'm a strong believer in the concept that the students will generally reflect the teachers or coaches and if Warren is anything to go by the students will surely be gents (and ladies if there are any)

    Don't forget to let us know how things go.

    Absolutely! ;)
     
  8. Hybrid_Killer

    Hybrid_Killer New Member

    Hahaha youll find the people at the club very friendly and we have a few people who are also new at judo so you wont be that far behind some of the others.
     
  9. Hybrid_Killer

    Hybrid_Killer New Member

    Come to think of it....the speed and power you have undoubtedly developed in your tai chi training may well prove to be a strong advantage.
     
  10. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    You seem to have missed these...;)

    ...i did it for a year and a half at a small club in sylvania.

    It wasn't with Sonny Ikeuchi was it? Warren was telling me about a Japanese guy out that way who taught both Judo and JJJ that he trained with for about 4 years. How long did you train JJJ for and what made you leave?

    what exactly did you do to the knee, whats the actual diagnosis?
     
  11. Hybrid_Killer

    Hybrid_Killer New Member

    No i trained under a Rodney Ellis for my jiu jitsu.I stopped because i moved from sylvania to bondi junction (a loooong way away:p)

    As for the knee i was practicing sidekicks with a partner and she sidekicked it pretty hard when I was watching my instructor and my knee was straight and now its sore and swollen(a bit of hobbling for me now).

    (im a bit of a wuss i know :D)
     
  12. sen

    sen New Member

    If im reinventing the wheel in this thread i apologise in advance.

    Judo attacks your opponent in a combination of 3 ways -

    Mentally - Via strangulation/chokes;Loss of conciousness
    Mechanically - Arm Locks;Destruction of mechanical integrity
    CardioVascularly(spiritually?) - Holds;Exhaustion of oxygen to muscular system.

    When holding on the ground i wouldn`t expect to remain static,no more than i would stay put in a boxing ring after succesfully landing a jab.

    The aim (as my mind uses it) is to exhaust your opponent using holds ,until they are too tired to properly defend against...just about anything really.

    Ju Jitsu in my mind is really just a collection of sensible techniques,stuff that the founder felt warranted inclusion in his system of "jitsu" - techniques.

    Everyone has Jitsu..it`s just a question of how Ju it is or isn`t.

    I think we all practice Jitsu and we all aim to make them as Ju as possible...i hope :D

    Ju definitely shouldn`t be interpreted as gentle...as i read once hehehe


    Damn that soap box..very sorry Ra,Ra RA
     
  13. sen

    sen New Member

    Oh yeah...forgot to mention.

    Do some Judo for as long as you can and then when you have a working ability(which you will see advances in very quickly) you can enhance your grappling/groundwork with many systems - including the techniques you find in JuJitsu.

    Judo will condition your body,get you much,much fitter and you will start using the part of the brain that deals with being upside down at speed a lot more.

    Seriously,if TaiJi is your main focus then what you are most likely looking for are quick ways to enhance/strengthen these areas.

    Judo is an ideal training medium for developing this aspect of your TaiJi.

    Funnily enough i started doing TaiJi to enhance my Judo

    You might want to look into Shuia Jiao if you want to keep with the CMA theme however.

    Somebody once said they are different sides of the same coin...the somebody was undefeated for 40 years.

    Taking on all comers,full contact - including Muay Thai exponents.
     
  14. TheMasterSword

    TheMasterSword Cunning Linguist

    Going back to the original question of judo or ju jutsu... in my humble opinion TAKE BOTH!!!

    ill tell you my experience cuz maybe it will help you decide.... i took judo (mainly because i think its the best art :) ) and because it helps you with leveraging throws, ground work, balance, stamina, muscles that matter in a fight and not ones for show... its goes on and on... however, it is a sport but it being a sport allows both opponents to "go at it" full force and not get killed.... try doing that with daito ryu ju jutsu NOT HAPPENING... judo doesn't have many theories because it is just done... there is no "this technique will work if force is applied this way", we just go out there and do it against someone who is struggling... however, since it is a sport it is limited........... i took ju jutsu because i wanted to learn more self defense oriented techniques..it has allowed me to use even more techniques such as wrist breaks/locks, striking, and it even has my judo techniques... its like the best of multiple arts in one..... however, there are techniques which are theoreotical cuz well i personally have never snapped someone's neck or done a compound fracture on an arm nor do i think my senseis have... jiu jitsu (brazilian) is pretty much 99.9 percent ground work which again is against a "full force struggling opponent".. bjj is an excellent art in which you learn to fight where most likely the fight is going to end up.... bjj are great fighters because they devote so much time into their groundwork.... but then again in a multiple attacker situation i can tell you that i will not go to the ground unless i am 1000000 percent forced to..


    so you see i study ju jutsu in the case where i would need self defense (against multiple attackers, knives, bats, guns) i study judo for all its benefits (self defense, all around grappling skills) and i study bjj to improve my groundwork

    we all do our styles for different reasons and what I take from the arts might be COMPLETELY different from what the guy next to me takes from it... the only way to know is if you try it out..
     
  15. TheMasterSword

    TheMasterSword Cunning Linguist

    also i read that someone said that kesa gatame is a ineffective street hold.... i totally disagree.... i've had to hold someone down who was a violent drunk and rather than mount him and start pounding i took a more aiki attitude and downed him then just controlled him with a kesa gatame...

    he was trying to hit my face, ribs, pull my face, ears, bite my arm.... and it was jus a matter of adapting... when he starting trying to swing and grab my face i simply placed my head as far to the ground as possible turning to the side so whatever strike he tried he was hitting the back of my skull and when you are down in that position he can't get much behind your punches so the hits to the ribs were more annoying then devasting... and when he tried biting me!!! i simply moved my arm underneath his neck continuing to control...

    i have found that in order to do any type of submission move... choke, lock, etc... you must first control your opponent whether it be in the guard, mounts, or wrestler holds... if you at first don't try and secure the opponent and take SOME control then all of your grappling skills go out the window and it becomes a strength match

    kesa gatame works into a number of arm bars, locks, chokes, mount transitions.. its all about adapting and never being static to let your aggressor get the best of you
     
  16. Specter

    Specter New Member

    This seems to be turning into a "Is Judo Useful on the Street" argument, which has already been discussed to death. Back to Syd for a second, I think that at least my dojo would be out of the question for him. Whether or not he could use the techniques in a street fight, hold a guy while keeping limbs free to defend himself with kesa, or anything else is moot (though I do believe that he could do all of this, and more). Judo is simply not right for him, because he wants the "cheap stuff." He wants to be able to take a guy down as quickly as he can, no matter which tactic he uses, and that is simply not the type of attitude that Judo works with. The best I can suggest is to simply look for a sensei who has the same attitude towards fights, no matter which art he practices, and you will learn lots quickly. Good luck
     
  17. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    HEY U NEVER DO TEH GRAPPLE ON TEH STREET [sarcasm]

    Christ on a skewer people, how long does this have to go on? JUDO WORKS ON TEH STR33T BECAUSE IT THROWS YOUR OPPONENT ONTO TEH STR33T. HARD.

    More importantly, judo works because of the fully alive sparring it does.

    And as for the groundwork not being effective? UDE GARAMI BREAKS YOUR ELBOW, GENIUS.

    Getting jumped? You're screwed anyway. There's nothing in your super lethal kung fooey that's gonna allow you to beat up five people.
     
  18. Adam

    Adam New Member

    Damn, cut back on the geekspeak, we get the picture :D
     
  19. redbull

    redbull New Member


    LOL :eek:
     
  20. Scaramouch

    Scaramouch Lost Soul

    Slightly unusually, I have moved from JJ to Judo. This has been mainly enforced on me by moving, as there is no JJ club where I now live - so I thought I'd give Judo a try again (I did it many years ago as a kid of 6 or 7). After re-starting Judo I was initially put off by it being pointed out by the instructor that this throw or that throw would have scored ippon or wazari (regardless of whether technically I had performed a good throw) and you can't touch your opponents face whilst trying to escape a hold down etc. etc. Article 27. But ignoring that side of things the way the techniques are taught are IMO on the whole pretty good.

    I was even more surprised when I got a copy of Kano's book Kodokan Judo, a few months back. Judo as it was originally developed by Kano at the turn of the 19th-20th century was probably somewhere inbetween what we now see as JJ and modern 21st century Judo. I would love to see more Judo clubs (namely the one I go to) moving back to Kodokan Judo and having less of a competition emphasis, but I guess Judo has gone too far down the road of being a sport to turn back now. I suppose the choice now is if you want less sport in your grappling MA you do JJ or BJJ. Don't under-estimate how good Judo is though, its definately comes a close 2nd for me - the intensity of randori for stand-up and prone grappling is hard to match.
     

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