Discussion in 'Judo' started by Xaiyn, Sep 14, 2005.
None taken actually. My back is properly relaxed the whole time
It seems like more and more BJJ and Judo clubs are using skills from the other to make their grappling more "complete". My BJJ club teaches a bit of judo and sambo to compliment our BJJ.
Its all good then.
Here's a controversial one, and I'm probably wrong...
Although it's often cited as a criticism, I think the fact that you can win by pin in judo is actually an ADVANTAGE.
I may be wrong but AFAIK BJJ places a very heavy emphasis on using the guard. While I acknowledge its importance, and it's obviously great for pure submission fighting, I've seen people get absolutely battered in MMA whilst being in the guard position. Also, for self defence, the top position is more viable because it allows you to escape.
In judo, however, you can win by pin, rather than submission, which makes staying on top more important. I know BJJ does teach you how to get on top, but there's less incentive to do this when you're not being punched by the guy on top, you can only win by submission, and you don't have to worry about getting away. Which, IMHO, means that judo has a big advantage over BJJ even in the groundwork department.
Now before everyone flames me, I'm not trying to revert to "but that wouldn't work on t3h str33t" arguments here. I do still think guardwork is important for self defence. However, I think that in that situation it becomes more of a last resort, and rolling into the top position takes priority over getting a submission, which is something I feel judo deals with more effectively.
I agree. If more people who did judo, did so with the MMA state of mind, like most do in BJJ, then i think judo would be better.
many people in mma and even in bjj academies are relatively poor guard players. a good guard can be as advantageous as the mount, especially with people who can counter the mount well.
The guard does not equal bjj,
Different BJJ players have different games- In fact the BJJ point system favours the mount and taking the back-
The success of many BJJ players in MMA is firmly built on its association with vale tudo, so the players have a gameplan and strategy to deal with wrestlers and boxers etc. This is beyond the regular sport BJJ club.
- So, If the BJJ player is a sport player, as most are, I would only put money on the BJJ player if he is beyond beginner level ie. Intermediate + level when the BJJ has technical ability to make a difference and reverse the Judokas pin he acheived off the throw.
But if the judoka had practised a lot of groundwork, the BJJ guy wouldn't be able to just "reverse the judokas pin", because judoka are good at pinning...
Another key point in that description is that he acheived the pin from a throw, which means that if that throw had been done on concrete in a real situation, the BJJ guy would most likely have sustained some damage, and possibly got knocked out, depending on the throw used.
I'll use Helio Gracie vs. Kimura as an example, Helio's plan was to let Kimura throw him with O Soto Gari, so that the fight would get to the ground, however, had this been done on concrete, the O Soto Gari would likely have hurt Helio pretty bad, as it is a very powerful throw.
I see some merit in this, but keep in mind that in judo one can "turtle" into a position that would be very unfavorable but is harmless as long as one can maintain it for long enough that the referee stands the fight back up (in my experience this has been between two and eight seconds and usually about four).
I do not know how BJJ handles this situation, but it seems to to me that this would be a glaring weakness for some judoka.
Well as I say I'm probably wrong because I'm not overly familiar with the BJJ ruleset, but I have heard people (including Randy Couture) criticise BJJ because it makes the guard position more favourable than it is in real life, hence many BJJers actually prefer the guard. That's not to say it's all about the guard, just that it's a bit more guard-friendly than real life.
If what you're talking about is a Brazilian jiu jitsu guy having a fight with a judo guy then yeah, you're probably right. But what I'm talking about is a situation where you want to use groundwork to escape the fight rather than to finish it. Again, I'm not trying to start an argument about broken glass, hypodermic needles and lava, but I think being able to get away is often more important than being able to "win".
they have different strengths. BJJ requires more strength than judo but the grappling and locks do more damage. In Judo its a little more effecient. Anyone of any size can take on and take down an opponent of any size. For example my
sensei (kodokan Judo) weights about 160 lbs, I weigh 212 lbs, he throws me like he throws anyone else. Overall, I think Judo has the advantage.
I'm pretty sure anyone's instructor, BJJ or Judo, regardless, is able to throw control the student regardless of size. Also, 50 pounds isn't a HUGE weight difference.
50lbs is a massive weight difference!
Would you agree to a Muay Thai bout or any other bout with someone that had 50lbs on you?!
I weigh 183lbs at the moment... I've taken MT bouts against 200lbs... and it was no cakewalk - in fact it was a grind. I wouldn't want a bout against someone who had 50lbs on me - not for MT and not for BJJ.
it's a whole weight class higher!
i have seen my bjj coach dominate people who outweigh him by 100 pounds. i'm only a blue belt and able to continuously submit people who outweigh me by 50 pounds or more, though the giants are white belts. skill can take one very far, but of course weight matters.
I didn't say 50 pounds wasn't a substantial size difference, I'm 170 and foguth a guy who weighed 220, not in a ring, but we still fought. To people who are teh same caliber of fighting, 50 pounds is a pretty big advantage, between student and teacher, it's not that significant.
Well I went to a grappling seminare to better my skills,and I learned alot I mean alot.
I ended up joining the school hosting the seminare because they used submission wrestling / greko roman wrestling. They used alot of shooting aswell as alot of different takedowns. Then comes the bjj with the amazing gaurd and sweeps.
I am slowly getting my groove as it is pretty hard to soak in everything in one day.Let alone ten.
We train for about 2-3 hours a class which is great, you get a very heavy work out and a very heavy technique base.
Then we role. I unfortunately was caught in an arm bar some time ago, which was applied a little to hard which resulted in my right dominant arm being hyper extended. This has really made my learning curve take a drastik change since now im obviously favouring that arm, and cant fully apply myself to every technique.
Anyways I really feel it comes down to the school and the students/instructors.
My grappling skills were great on an amature level ,at best a white belt with some good ground and pound. But grappling with blue and purple belts really shows the difference in calibre.I train every day now and hopefully , my ears will stayve off the coliflower ear syndrome a little longer until I can get a decent pair of ear gaurds.
No ground game is good unless it's well rounded.Judo or bjj or sambo or shotto.
It must be well rounded period no matter what.
I've read in a few places that originally the idea of a pin was that you had your opponant in a vulnerable position and from there you could strike him without much retaliation (they didnt actually do the subsequent striking though obviously).
Many clubs still train with strikes still in mind while not actually doing them, for instance in randori your not supposed to put your head down too far otherwise your open to knees and so forth. Not sure how many clubs still hold that tradition though.
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