Judo - the whipping boy of grappling?

Discussion in 'Judo' started by Timmy Boy, Mar 5, 2005.

  1. semphoon

    semphoon walk idiot, walk.

  2. Captain_Coward

    Captain_Coward Ne-Waza Worm

    I saw that MAI article as well, Looks like a load of <removed>, are you supposed to wear that stupid scarf all the time. How to strangle another person with a piece of clothing seems pretty self explanatory to me aswell.
    Not specifically about this article but this magazine really needs to stop living in fantasy land, i enjoy some of the articles but why do they repeatedly print rubbish about people with magical powers and all sorts. Claims to be able to control others with their minds and to be able to effect their surroundings with there thoughts, are you kidding me.
    Quite a warbling rant i am sorry.
    I would prefer that magazines like this however stuck to reporting on widely practiced martial arts, most people i have talked to, refuse to read this and similar publications as they are so full of walter mitty stories about people who make up martial arts in their bedroom or after meeting bruce lee while meditating.

    Now even though i have said all this, for some reason i continue to buy this magazine, probably because i don't have any access to other MA publications.
    I wonder how many people feel the same way i do though.

    Hope this starts some kind of discussion.

    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2005
  3. jms137

    jms137 New Member

  4. notquitedead

    notquitedead used to be Pankration90

    I think the criticism about reliance on gi's is fair. Of course if you are attacked the attacker will most likely be wearing clothes. However, is he going to be wearing a gi? No. He might be wearing a t-shirt or something else that won't hold up when you try to pull him around by it or throw him. If it's too tight, you might not be able to grip well enough to do anything. In situations like that, it's good to know how to clinch well without a gi.

    Another thing is ippons. Sure, if you drop a guy on his head in a fight it might be over, but watch these clips:

    Notice how both times Suzuki wins by ippon, he rolls right off of his opponent. In a fight, throwing a guy only to roll off of him isn't that great of an idea. If you're going to the ground with him, you should try and throw him into a pin, not just throw him for the sake of it. I think when throwing in a fight you should either uses shuai chiao's strategy (throwing them but staying on your feet) or wrestling's (use the throw to get into a pin).

    The rules are pretty restrictive as well (no shoulder locks etc).
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2005
  5. fanatical

    fanatical Cool crow

    I'm not very well versed in judo rules, so I won't complain on that. For all I've heard they are a bit restrictive. However..

    I hate using "teh street" arguments, but being thrown anywhere there's no mat will knock the hell out of me, I don't know if you feel that way, but being thrown on asfalt or the ground at all will hurt me pretty good. Although I agree you should go for a pin of course.

    As for people saying a gi can take so much tearing and pulling, I can't say I buy it too much. People can easily hold be back by holding my shirt. I'm not wearing fabric that tears just by looking at it. And if you're going to throw an opponent on "teh street" *sigh* I wouldn't think you'd care if his clothes get stretched or not. And throws aided by holding on to the gi is not ALL throws in judo, it can help of course, but do you need to grab the gi when throwing ogoshi or koshi guruma for instance?

    Let me just emphazise again that what I DO agree with is the fact that, from what I've seen, judo's large emphasis on competition and the rules it has brought may have brought a different focus to the issue of controlling an opponent.
  6. leeless

    leeless Handshaker extraordinaire

    Well, knowing how to punch a guy or get them in a headlock seems quite self-explanatory to most, but there you go.

    While I haven't been reading MAI long, it has been informative in various degrees. But yes, sometimes it can be a bit poor. Some articles are vague and sometimes even abstract! I've read two articles on Keysi Fighting Method now and I still haven't any idea what its all about. Nice pictures though...

    Maybe its not catering for the heavily informed MAP'ers? :)
  7. Captain_Coward

    Captain_Coward Ne-Waza Worm

    Haha, very good point m8.
    I do find some of the articles informative like the interview this month with Royce Gracie or the one with Billy Doak.
    And the pictures my word, why do the people do those poses, are they having a laugh or do they really believe they look hard or menacing, just look ridiculous to me.
    The fact that they totally neglect judo, is this because it is not "Street" enough or its too "sporty" i find it quite annoying as it is so widely practiced yet it is only mentioned in passing, and never included in the calendar sections or news.

    PLease other people give me your views.

  8. TheGunslinger

    TheGunslinger New Member

    I've also not been too impressed with MAI lately although I did receive the latest issue today in the post and it contained a decent interview with Geoff Thompson. Are there any alternative martial arts magazines anyone could recommend? Curently I only purchase The Ring, MAI and occasioanlly Boxing Monthly (which I think is better than The Ring and a damn site cheaper).
  9. notquitedead

    notquitedead used to be Pankration90


    I'm just saying that if a throw requiring a gi can't be pulled off, I'd rather know how to throw like a wrestler...

    I know not all the throws require a gi, but again if you want throws like that then learn wrestling. The set ups, clinching, distance, etc. is different.

    Don't get me wrong guys, I like judo, I just think some of the criticism is fair.
  10. GojuKJoe

    GojuKJoe Valued Member

    Judo is a sport, plain and simple. That's what it was designed for, so all these street arguments, and gi arguments are not supposed to be applied against judo. Having said that, judo still has everything you need to be effective in most situations as far as grappling goes. The throws will work outside, gi or no gi, and also, we don't throw our opponents and roll off them, that's just in competition when an ippon is scored. At our club, we do all our throws, and follow on from all of them for ground work. As far as ground work is concerned, we do strangles, and armlocks, and that's all you need.
  11. Captain_Coward

    Captain_Coward Ne-Waza Worm

    Judo was not designed as a sport. It has turned out as one. The Sport Judo is also not true to the original Kodokan Judo taught by master Kano.

  12. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Yes but to me it's useful to have the gi throws too. In Britain lots of people wear thick jackets.

    I agree that it's fair, I just don't think it makes judo crap like some people (not you) like to make out. Kyokushinkai has a weakness in that they don't usually do head shots in sparring, it's still an effective art.
  13. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    AFAIK, judo WAS designed as a sport version of ju jutsu for the same reason that kickboxing was designed as a sport version of karate - to practice live, realistic sparring. The end goal was to make a more effective fighting system. It was different back in Kano's day - there were less prohibited techniques, and they learned atemi in the kata - but it WAS designed as a sport.
  14. GojuKJoe

    GojuKJoe Valued Member

    Yeah, judo was designed as a sport version of jujitsu, it isn't actually a "martial art" as such.
  15. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Depends on your definition, I personally think it was designed as both, since the sport aspect was designed to increase its effectiveness as a martial art.
  16. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    Judo was originally designed as a safe way to practice grappling martial arts on each other. The sporting aspect grew with the art, and most probably wasn't the sole intention originally.
  17. Captain_Coward

    Captain_Coward Ne-Waza Worm

    I am sorry but you are wrong, Judo is very much a martial art. It was never created as a sport.
    Read Kodokan Judo by Master Kano and all will be revealed

    Last edited: Mar 15, 2005
  18. notquitedead

    notquitedead used to be Pankration90

    I agree, but if I had to choose between learning to grapple with the gi or without it (for self defense), I'd go with no-gi because it works whether they are wearing clothes or not. Gi grappling is still useful to know, though.
  19. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Yeah, that's exactly what I think.
  20. Ghost Frog

    Ghost Frog New Member

    My other half can get people to tap from a pin just because of the weight of his chest. :D

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