Judo & Self Defense

Do you guys think Judo, and it's lack of emphasis on striking puts the Judoka at a disadvantage in terms of self defence? I undestand enough about the art to realize that throws and submissions are excellent for protecting one's self, but I'm also kinda wrestling with the thought that striking holds more of a place in self defense than either of these last two. Do you think Judo by itself is sufficient for self defense, or one would have to cross train [ I.E. Judo & Boxing] to substitute for the lack of striking ability inherent within the art today?

Thanks

 

i did judo for five years as a teenager and thought it was no good for self-defence but was an excellent sport and had a lot of fun

when i started ninjutsu in my early twenties i never really thought about judo, despite ninjutsu using throws locks etc

now i am begining to see that judo can be used as an effective form of self-defence if you take the time to learn a couple of 'extras' that aren't included directly in judo.

Basically, judo relies upon you having a good grip on your assailant and manipulating their balance to take them down. Once on the ground, the judoka is seriously at an advantage, esp. as many people who have no specific fight training are completley useless on the ground.

So, assuming idiot attacker x swings for you, all you need to do is be able to evade the incoming strike and get a good grip, then drop them with an especially evil throw which knocks the wind out of them and apply a nice controlling choke/arm lock etc

In the UK's current climate, you will have defended yourself effectively and also avoided prosecution yourself as you have not had to resort to pummelling the hell out of the guy cos you don't know how to restrain people.

 

We actually had a discussion about this last night at the club. One of the new students asked the instructor, what he would recommend if someone tried to attack him with a knife, this question had come up before so i piped up with the obvious answer " you do a Linford Christie and run the hell away". The student was slightly taken a back that this 4th Dan would say such a thing but it is totally right. Most people who get into a violent situation even a very experienced MA will be afraid and not react as he may do in a club. It is all very well teaching the student that you must shorten the range to the assailant then control the weapon arm and once taking him to the ground strike them with whatever you can everywhere you can reach and then run. But would this really happen in a real situation, its much harder to change your reactions than it is to know the appropriate tecniques.
Now as for judo as self defence, i have to say i have used it a couple of times in drunken fights and it has worked very well. Its strange how even when drunk your body can still remember the proper movements and with an opponent who doesn't know whats happening it is easy to execute a devastating throw. Now, once on the ground i would not ever apply an arm lock or a choke unless i was sure this guy was on his own and i had lots of back up cause you run the risk of his mates stamping your head in. Much better would be to do some cross training in boxing or another striking art, and give him the good news with a few punches to the face and then make your getaway.

Slightly warbling, but in conclusion yes Judo can be very effective in self defence if as you say you learn a few more tricks, and perhaps do some boxing on the side.
Much harder to teach though is the calmness you need to have in these situations which may actually be impossible, most ordinary people will never be calm if someone draws a knife or a smashed bottle on them.

K

 

a good post, and i agree with the majority of it,

my only point is about the above quote...surely one of the benefits of serious MA training is to be able to accept the natural fear response and to be capable of maintaining calm in the face of violent assault?

although, i am aware that this is far easier to say in theory than to do in practice!

 

I know what your saying mate, but when people enter the dojo there is always a natural sense of safety. The people they fight against are usually friends and they have no intention of seriously hurting each other.
Its the unknown that is hard to simulate. Walking alone along a dark street and being comfronted by an armed attacker, even in a scenario which you have trained for in the dojo, you will react very differently because of your mind set.

Not the most concise post i am sorry, but i hope you can see what i mean.

K

 

Great posts.

I'm going to say that, like all other budo, there are pros and cons. But, I figure that, if you can play judo with skill and if you can do so without freezing or panicking to the point of self-imposed immobilization, then you can make it work for you.

For example, say that you are able to control or pin your opponent with judo waza. You don't need to be a great striker in order to inflict some damage. True, people with excellent striking skills can, of course, end the fight quicker and convincingly.

However, say a little kid has you mounted. Don't you think it would hurt if the kid just started throwing his weak shots to your nose? To your eyes? To your throat? On instinct, people will hit anything. Now, imagine an adult on top of you who can control you via judo while throwing any kind of shot at you, all over you, while you're in a defensive position.

A judoka who can control his opponent's body and movement can strike and inflict compounded damage without necessarily being trained in a classical striking art. It's a primal instinct to do so when required.

Osu...

 

capt,

yeah i'm with you 100percent

its that inital coctail of adrenaline and fear which only occurs when its unexpected and for real which cannot be overcome without some long-term training or lots of bad experiences

perhaps a thread about how to increase the realism in training would be helpful?

 

Yup,

If anyone has some good ideas on the subject, other than frightening your students on their way home. Please post em

Cheers for your posts xen

K

 

My exact situation, except you can substitute 5 years for 10 years of judo, and replace ninjutsu for wing chun.

I never had to use MA in self defense (thanks goodness), but I do know judo throws and sweeps work beautifully against people who have no grappling experience - I do Muay Thai now, and when the coach allows us to mix things, I own pretty much anyone in the your-head-to-the-floor department.

But I agree, you definetely should mix it with a striking art. As I remember, Kyokushinkai people in Japan used to be judokas as well, for the exact same reason.

 

Judo can be very effective for self defence. One time, I got into a fight, and the guy didn't even bother throwing any punches. You'd be surprised how often this happens- often, a guy will just grab you and try to push you against the wall, etc. I seoi nage'd him onto the floor.
Ippon.

 

Judo has all the tools required to give the practioner a good self defence base, however, these days judo is rarely taught with self defence in mind. Hopefully this will change in the future as judo instructors realise there is a big, potential market out there currently being "taped" (couldn't resist it!) by JJ and BJJ.

 

In the first place, it doesn't- it doesn't have striking.
Also, it doesn't matter whether it's taught 'with self defence in mind'.

 

Judo doesn´t have striking. Yes, some people do remember an ancient dinossaur called judo atemi waza, but that beast is believed to be extinct long ago. A judoka needs striking, even if only enough to get close to a striker.

Please, PLEASE let´s not create the "anti-striking" here.

 

I think judo is an extremely useful component of self defence, but as others have said striking should not be neglected if you want to weather the barrage of punches and get close enough to throw, and it's a good idea to train in some non-gi grappling for the many occassions where your opponent isn't wearing a jacket.

 

I second that. Judo randori, in my experience, is a bit too dependent on the gi. It does work very well without it, fortunately.

 

To shift the conversation a bit... what tricks do you have for adapting judo for self defense. I'm a newbie at Judo (only been at it for a few months) and I see the future self defense applications of what I'm learning. At the same time, as a beginner, I have a hard time conceptualizing how to throw without a handful of gi sleeve in most situations.

Do you folks actively work against sleeveless partners? Any suggestions?

- Matt

 

Well, I only do MT at the moment, but our coach is a BJJ blue belt and he tries to train us in no gi grappling at least once a month (more often every two months), so people will not be totally defenseless against a takedown or in the ground. I never used martial arts for self defense, so bear this in mind when reading what comes now.

Judo works for me. Beautifully. We practice our monthly/bi monthly grappling sessions using only the custom made MT shorts and shirts, so no gi for us. To use judo without a gi you need, well, a firm grasp (no pun intended). You need to be able to hold the arm and the back of the neck firmly, even when both you and your partner are sweaty as pigs.

You also need to know when to turn a failed punch into a grab, or vice versa. I did this to a guy once - he was wearing boxing gloves, I wasn´t; his goal was to punch the crap out of me, my goal was to throw/sweep him by any means I could. He punched, I punched as well inside the centerline just enough to divert his punch, I grabbed his arm, I koshi guruma´d him to the floor.

Oh yeah, I only managed to throw people with my personal variation of koshi guruma (I turn my back and half hip throw, half trip them with my other leg). Surprisingly they fall for it ALL the time.

I know that´s lame, but considering I have not practiced judo seriously for eight years, that´s quite good.

 

Some throws like o-goshi and morote-gari work without a gi, but I'm a bit too inexperienced to provide an exhaustive list. Ippon seionage works without a gi against someone just standing there, but I haven't tried it in randori.

 

Unless you are topless, most of the throws work if you substituite a large handful of t-shirt instead of the lapel, or you grab a wrist instead of a sleeve, its fairly easy to swap between the two. A quick "lug-Buster" grab round the back of the head is always good as well.

K