In Judo - learning how to break your falls - should always come first... before you learn any technique at all. I dont know who your Sensei is, but I'd say this - he/she must teach you how to fall before teaching you how to throw, or anything else, for that matter. If that is not the case, he/she is probably not a very good one (Sensei). BTW: you will never catch up to the others - if they are not teaching how to do technique X - step by step - grips, kozushi, foot work, form, proper stance, etc., etc... ... Unless you are there because your friends go there too and it's fun or it's close to your home or classes are inexpensive or some other specific reason that's important to you - I'd look elsewhere. Maybe all those black belts are there to train among themselves and NOT to teach you or anybody else. PS: if the first throwing techniques they teach you are NOT - Ippon Seonagi / O Goshi / Uki Goshi / O Soto Gari / Koshi Guruma - dont walk out - run out, as fast as you possibly can.
This is a pretty strong blanket statement from my POV. In my first judo session I learned ouchi gari then tai otoshi and then how to combine them. It was what the rest of the class was also working on, but at a more advanced level. That's pretty much how I learned all the basics and I don't think I've suffered for it.
- O Goshi & Uki Goshi - due to the need for good hip movement in Judo. - Ippon Seonagi - most students pick it up quickly... it's also very effective in competition (with the Gi). Koshi Guruma (head & arm - hip toss) again, most students pick it up quickly and it's also very effective, in any situation. O Soto Gari - Ouch - painful on Uke... he/she must know how to break a fall - especially with techniques like O Soto Gari, where Uke is thrown in the backward direction, there by, often landing hard on his/her back, or worse, the back of neck or head. I dont think I'm making this stuff up, nor do I believe a knowledgeable judoka will disagree with my statement that - 1) O Goshi / Uki Goshi 2) Koshi Guruma 3) Ippon Seonagi - although not necessarily in that order - are the first Judo throwing techniques that should be taught. My Sensei taught me that way - and I've always taught that way, as well... very successfully, if I may add. 1+1=2 / Yes, I can/may add. LOL IMHO - Ouchi Gari and Tai O Toshi, alone, by themselves are wonderful and effective techniques - and in a combo - Nice! - however, a bit advanced for a 1st lesson, especially the two in a combo. PS - I only teach children and young teens... maybe I feel it's to complicated / advanced for them, because they are all so young... although I've also tried teaching it to some adults - and they faired no better than the young ones, on their first lesson.
I am one of your 'beginner' judoka having started when I was 50. I did find that the break falls were really sort of quickly gone over but they looked at how each student handled it and then decided if you were capable of joining in safely or not. Judo is not my main art and I only train sporadically. That being said I also was in a class that was mostly brown and black belts and I found them more than helpful in giving me the basics and taking extra time if needed. Randori was good fun but , having wrestled in my youth, it was fun. Judo is an art that looks easy until you start to appreciate all the nuances of grip fighting, combos and all the other facets of the art. You learn by doing in judo and that leaves you with skills that anyone can appreciate. By the way do the have a childrens class? I could have attended the usual childrens beginners class and gone through all the usual stuff. I was told I could stay where I was or go to the childrens class or do both. Personally, as belts mean nothing to me, I am happy to show up and get slapped about and see what I can learn from participating. If you think you need help ask for it. I am sure someone will be happy to oblige although they may ask you to come outside of class time. Have fun!! powchoy
These are the throws I learned too when I first started Judo twenty or so years ago. If you are in Scotland then it does not surprise me that these would be the first you would learn as I think Europeans (my instructor is Norwegian and was heavily influenced by Geoff Gleeson who taught him directly) teach things a tad bit different than many of the traditionalists over here in the USA. I know this is heresy as well, but we don't learn breakfalls either until orange belt and there is a good reason for it. That reason being if you are in a tournament and you start slapping your arms you lose the match; as a beginner that is not what we want you to learn as a reaction to a throw. We learn and teach how to jump over and turn out of throws as soon as you step on the mat. Ukemi does have its place, but not always as the first thing taught. I know not everyone likes this approach, but it has its merits. As far as the OP and the people in the club not teaching you any specific throws, whether it is a traditional or a sport oriented club, someone should help you out. I'm not saying show you a bunch of throws and say go at it, but one good beginner throw like tai otoshi or, o soto, or ippon seoi, at least the finer points to walk you through it. Are the BB in the class at least taking some throws from you or are they just standing there like trees you are trying to chop down? If they are not taking throws or interested in the least in teaching you how to learn them I would perhaps explore some other options.
It's between you, Slip & Betty The style of club you describe is very similar to how it's done here. Looks & feels scary to beginners but the choice of their training partner is always tightly controlled. If the guy sticks at the club I've a feeling he's going to get very good very quickly.
Personally I think that as long as the student can breakfall safely, then you can teach them any throw. Now that is a very encompassing statement, and I would modify it by saying that the throw being taught to a novice may need to be adapted according to their capabilities. I would also state that 'just because you can' DOESN'T mean 'you should' I have seen Ippon Seio Nage being taught along with Tani otoshi and O Soto Makikomi to white belts without injury. However they weren't taught in a Shiai environment......... Ultimately the instructor needs to review and understand the audience. I fully support mentoring (formal and informal) along with formal and informal instruction, and the key to success is SAFETY (hence breakfalling first and always before any throwing practice). How do you judge safety....... an accurate and up to date accident book is a starting point
I don't think we disagree on this point actually, the 4 throws you listed should certainly be taught as fundamentals in a beginner's judo, it was just the statement "If the first throwing techniques they teach you are NOT - Ippon Seonagi / O Goshi / Uki Goshi / O Soto Gari / Koshi Guruma - dont walk out - run out, as fast as you possibly can." that I thought I'd comment on as I learned ouchi gari and tai otoshi, followed by the 4 you mention over the next couple of lessons
We're good. The reason I stated "dont walk - run out, as fast as possible" is because I remebered a Judo school I visited (name unmentioned) a few years back - and they were teaching Tomoe Nage & Uchi Mata - to novice youngsters - between the ages of 5 - 10 y/o. Not a good idea, IMHO.
JC, Interestingly JudoScotland are of the opinion that Koshi Guruma shouldn't be taught to youngsters due to the high rate of them head cranking each other!!! The current feeling is that in randori the kids get carried away, regardless of how well they are coached the technique. Though I agree that a Koshi-waza and a Seoi Nage technique should definately be amongst the first things taught in a beginners session. The fact remains though, that in adult sessions where you have a large number of high grades and few lower grades, you can't alter the whole class for the minority. Of course, if you have enough qualified coaches (remembering in Judo that BB does not necessarily equal coach, in fact one of the best coaches at our club is a 'career' Brown Belt) then you can split the class. Though if you don't have enough coaches you can still tailor it a bit...
Cheers for the advice everyone, I'm going to stick at it, but I'm sill going to have a check around some of the other classes in the local area, just to get some sense of context, there are a suprising number of Judo, Jujitsu and BJJ classes in my local area, so I might check some of them out, since I do like the throwy grapply stuff. The problem tends to be fitting them into my week since I'm only free on thursdays atm. I was never smacked as a child... ...well, maybe a couple of grams to help me get to sleep at night.
There is a difference between Koshi Guruma and a head/neck crank... but I do see what you mean. The good judoka will learn how to, and do it correctly, sooner than later, IMHO. Some kids, you can teach Koshi Guruma - all day and night - for a life time, and they'd still be doing a head/neck crank... I know, it does happen, but I dont allow it during randori at the dojo. Tournaments... I plea the 5th. I dont disagree with your first statement - I dont completely agree either. I actually teach several cranks from different positions, always letting the students know the specific rules of each particular style we compete in, and expressing that in a street fight - there are NO rules! Your second statement - I agree - 100%... but I do teach Martial Arts / Self Defense - Whatever you wanna call it - a crank is a part of that.
I feel that you are sort of being sidelined in the classes by the sensi. Because the vast majorty of judoka there are black belts, there all so expercienced I suppose they find it hard to slow it up and break it down for you. At my club its the same sort of thing, but only 6-8 people attend every night, which means I get alot ot personal teaching time by the higher belts and the sensi. Although one good thing is (providing you can breakfall) randoori with a far more expercienced judoka. It lets you see all of the small finer detail you need to make a successful throw in a match situation, not when practicing. If you get someone who doesn't kick your ass for fun, then you will find that the aches and pains of getting thrown alot are good for your long term development in the sport. Thats my position and expercience on it anyway.
