Judo compatibility with other arts in 2016

Discussion in 'Judo' started by Prizewriter, Jan 5, 2016.

  1. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I don't think that polemics from either end is healthy - and as a catch guy myself I laugh evilly at both of you whilst twirling my mustache - but when you define something as not being widely practcied you instantly lower you sample selection

    The UK has a massive Judo following and history and is absolutely world class at it; It also has a solid BJJ level, so as a representative group it is far more accurate

    The US has BOTH these at world class level PLUS wrestling - the style that does leg attacks better anyway

    So yes, it absolutely undermines the point when you have already limited your sample
  2. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    How does
    "you have to stop glorifying your magically invincible BJJ bluebelts" read to you? Sounds to me like I'm being belittled and dismissed and I'm not in a particularly good mood this evening.
    What kind of 'jiu jitsu'? It's very relevant because it determines whether, when we're talking about something like 'leg attacks' or the general level of competence at x in style y, I have to explain to explain it in short words and baby talk or not.
    Which parts of this [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZsKInibQt4"]Single-leg Series - YouTube[/ame] has your Judo training given you answers to prevent? That's the kind of thing 'basic leg-attack defense' needs to address when takedowns and not ippons are the goal.
    Where did I say that? I said
    because I've actually seen it happen a bunch of times.

    Yes, it's trivially true that the absolute form of the claim is false, so what? No one made it.
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2016
  3. Lennert

    Lennert Valued Member

    In my humble opinion, you would have been far better off just stating: "equally skilled, a BJJ practitioner would beat a judo practitioner at wrestling", and then pointing out why you think that is true.

    And I still don't see how it undermines my own statement since I included geography within the statement. It IS my point. If the previous statement is dependent on geography without defining it, it is not universally true.

    I'm sorry, I did not intentionally direct that at you personally. I've seen more posts around with certain claims about BJJ bluebelt ability, and I just think it is too subjective.

    Dutch style modern jiu-jitsu. I have a thread about it in the ju-jitsu forum, there are a couple of videos, and someone posted a nice bit of history as well. You are welcome to take a look :)

    I would probably resort to my ju-jitsu training, because I have it. Not sure what a pure judoka would do, but I am confident they wouldn't just stand there and let it happen.

    Thanks alot for the video btw, I've found it very educational.
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2016
  4. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    I didn't say that because that isn't what I meant. You can say that, if you want?
    You train take-downs with Judoka in a BJJ, wrestling or MMA context, regularly? You ever competed in BJJ or sub wrestling? Ever even been to a competition for either of them?
  5. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Maybe it's changed but when I was competing the takedown abilities of the strict bjj crowd in the UK (and im including comps we did at braulios place and other well known bjj places) was hardly that good, the shoot fighters and judo guys owned them in the no GI takedowns their clinch and lower body work wasn't that good, now in the States that's probably different but in the UK with the lack of good wrestling and large matted areas to practise takedowns safely it's a different story.
  6. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    Oh, don't get me wrong, the average UKBJJ single-leg is a comi-tragic monstrosity. It's just good enough to work on people who've literally never been single legged before.
  7. Lennert

    Lennert Valued Member

    Unfortunately, I only train with judoka's during judo training.. I do fool around sometimes and use ju-jitsu takedowns, including single leg takedowns against them. Sometimes it works, sometimes they manage to prevent it. No real shock there.

    The first problem I see with notably the first takedown in the video is that a judoka could drop, grab the arm and go for an arm bar. Another option is turn to the inside (like shown in the video) and go for a naked choke from the front.
  8. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    And I think that's probably the point, the average judo blackbelt will probably have been single legged before seeing as most adults start of in kiddies judo and they would have been allowed then, add in the fact that competitive judo has a much deeper talent pool that bjj at the moment in most countries outside the USA and Brazil and I find it hard to believe the average blue belt would beat the average bjj black belt, but we are all the sum of our experiences my first experience of judo guys in bjj and no GI came from Jimmy wallhead and a few other former England squad members so many my view is bias,
  9. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    What? No, neither of those things are viable counters to a head-inside single.
  10. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    You see a lot of single-leg shots from distance taught in kid's Judo, ever? It was marginally valuable even in the old rules and regarded as a competition trick rather than any kind of fundamental.
    The average BJJ blue subs the average Judo black in the UK, seen it a hundred times not least when I was the average BJJ blue. A cross-trained pro fighting badass like Wallhead is obviously not the average.

    The take-down thing, don't forget you haven't been able to shoot from distance in Judo since 2010...
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2016
  11. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member

    I know a Judo BB who competes BJJ at blue. Granted, he's in in mid forties and faces athletic 20 somethings in bjj competitions, but the guy has over 30 years of experience competing, training and teaching Judo, including teaching a stand up class at a local Gracie Barra. Not a freshly minted judo guy by any means. Well, not only does he have to go all out to successfully throw bjj blue belts - forget about brown or better - but I've seen him get his back regularly when attempting to throw.
  12. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    How about a BJJ blue v a Kosen Judo black
  13. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member

    There's no "Kosen Judo" black. Kosen is a competition ruleset, not a style.
  14. BohemianRapsody

    BohemianRapsody Valued Member

    I have my shodan in judo. Haven't competed seriously since the late 90s but I have done a few BJJ comps recently in the blue belt division. I thought I'd chime in since it seems to be the topic du jor.

    1. I'm in Northern California. Wrestling here is pretty strong. When I was still competing in judo we often had high school and college wrestlers come in to train on their off season. I got pretty good at defending leg attacks. Decent at implementing them against other judoka but I never even bothered if someone had a solid wrestling base. It was just not going to happen.

    2. I've only completed gi. Mostly because it's been a long time and that's more what I'm used to. I don't do a lot of no gi training so I'd probably just make a fool out of myself if I tried.

    3. BJJ rules really, and I mean really, screw up your judo game. Especially if you're not used to them. A lot of guys will just stick their hips back and stiff arm the heck out of you once they realize you can throw. It becomes very hard to get anything off in them. Being able to grab and hold a belt all day changes things as well.

    4. You have to be careful what throws you go for. There's the obvious things like not completely giving up your back to get an ippon, but less obvious things like hitting an ouchi gari then being stuck in guard playing defense because of it. Took a few matches to get used to switching to a leg grip on the way down.

    5. There's a lot of people with wrestling backgrounds in the US. When I face one of them I don't feel like I have an advantage in takedowns. When I face someone without it I do, but have to work three times as hard to get one due to the afformentioned stiff arming.

    On a side note Jimmy Pedro has a bunch of great judo for BJJ videos on YouTube. I think even judoka not competing in BJJ should watch them. It's hard to do judo when someone is actively trying to shut you down.

    6. A BJJ blue belt can mean a lot of things. My ne waza tends to be better than the guys who just came up from white belt and I struggle a lot more against people close to purple belt. To try to be more accurate, I'm more polished than guys with a basic game. I get kind of lost with guys pulling out De La Riva or X Guard.

    Anyway, that's my brief summary of how it generally goes for me. You guys seem to be more UK based so it might be a completely different deal.
  15. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    You can "complete give up your back" if you can control your opponent's arms on the way in. As long as your opponent's arm can't reach to your waist, you will be safe.
  16. BohemianRapsody

    BohemianRapsody Valued Member

    I absolutely agree with this. I mean completely giving up your back when its more in the context of what sometimes happens in judo where you finish a throw practically in their back mount but it doesn't matter because you got the ippon.
  17. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Excellent points BR. Simon
    Ilar to many judoka I've talked to. The best judo players I've met tend to be at a good blue belt level, although I find if they are regular judo competitors they often have athletecism on their side.
  18. BohemianRapsody

    BohemianRapsody Valued Member

    Thanks, and yes I often think competitive judoka have better cardio and tend to be more explosive. But I just mean on average. Plenty of explosive BJJ players out there who would happily prove me wrong.

    I think, in general, judo ne waza is a very solid basic game. And to me that's kind of what a BJJ blue belt signifies, someone who has a solid foundation in the basic positions and submissions.

    I've had the fortune of rolling with a few BJJ black belts and my joke is that it often feels like black magic. One minute I'm in control and the next I'm tapping to an armbar. The best explanation I've heard for that is that at a black belt level they are setting up moves five or six steps ahead. So while for me it comes out of nowhere, they've seen it coming all along.

    To an extent judoka do that with throws, but tachi waza tends to be a faster more reactionary game so there's less lead time.
  19. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I've always seen judo as closer to boxing than other styles in the way it's implemented. It's normally a combination with a throw at the end, or footwork and a throw. Much like boxing has cominations.
  20. BohemianRapsody

    BohemianRapsody Valued Member

    Yes, yes, and yes. Did I mention I agree with you?

    That's a great analogy. I'm going to start using it and claim it as my own. In fact I'm going to go ahead and alter your quote so I can better steal it.

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