Judo blackbelt should've worn white

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by flashlock, Jan 17, 2008.

  1. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I believe BJJ is the best martial art for real self defense.

    You see from my research and experience there really is no consensus (amongst people that know more than you or I will ever know) on a best art for self defence. And if there was it wouldn't be a grappling based one. It just simply wouldn't. Not a chance.
    People push their own agendas. The Gracies are masters of that.
    The nearest I can see to some sort of consensus is that the best base for self defence is a whole barrel load of awareness backed up up by learning to hit freaking hard and finished up with enough fitness to leg it.
    Western boxing seems highly regarded for teaching you step 2 of that progression.
    Match fights (as seen in Gracie in action tapes) are not entirely representative of self defence you know.
     
  2. Rhea

    Rhea Laser tag = NOT MA... Supporter

    If this is turning into a debate on BJJ, why was it in the judo forum in the first place? Better still why is it still around, as it's completely pointless.
     
  3. Sgt_Major

    Sgt_Major Ex Global Mod Supporter

    It's a discussion, and a pretty good one imo...

    But I have moved it to BJJ forum.
     
  4. flashlock

    flashlock Banned Banned

    The thread has changed subject, and that's great, so I can answer you now...

    Obviously, after my own reseach and experience, I side with those experts who advocate BJJ. You can point to experts, and I can point to experts. In the end it comes down to being as objective as you can, then after research, consulting experts, reading books, experimenting, and asking hard questions, you make a decision of what you're going to do, weighing the pros and cons--and I'm straight, dag nab it... wait... what are we talking about?

    I'd like you to give your reasons why there is no chance a grappling art could not be the best for self defense.

    Here are my reasons:

    1. It's a little easier to close the distance and bring the fight into the grappler's game than to keep a grappler in the striking zone.

    2. BJJ proved its effectiveness over striking arts in hundreds of street fights in Brazile, as well as Gracie challenge matches, and of course in MMA.

    3. The dirty trick stand bys (eye gouge, biting, small joint manipulation, etc.) aren't reliable.

    4. The argument about muliple opponents fails becuase no art has demonstrated reliable effectiveness vs mulitple opponents (who aren't drunken 3 stooges). If you can't beat one BJJ blackbelt, worry about multiple opponents some other time...

    5. Live training. You can go full speed, full power, and try the techniques without holding back (you just stop when the opponent taps). You can't do that in striking arts or all your training partners would be in the hospital. Nothing can prepare you better for a real situation than live training--BJJ had that before it became a dopey MA cliche.

    6. Striking opens you up to being struck (puncher's chance) and breaking your own hand or foot. Also, if the guy has a longer reach and more power, the small guy has very little chance exchanging blows with a similiarly skilled opponent. In BJJ, skill really can overcome size, demonstrated again and again.

    Everyone has their own agenda. At least the Gracies put their stuff on the line time and time again, and recorded it. Ninjas, kung fu masters, and all the rest: where are your challenge tapes? Nowhere because they don't have the nuts.

    You're contradicting yourself a little bit, first you said there is no consensus and now you say there is a sort of consensus.

    Yes, awareness and fitness are important, which you get in BJJ. As for hitting freaking hard, that cannot be the basis of any good self defense because of women and children who just don't have the power to make certain strikes effective.

    Instead, they need to learn to escape from grabs and mounts (rape/ abduction). Obviously, BJJ meets those requirements.

    For strikes, I advocate head-butts, knees, and elbows, all of which generate a lot of force but in close range, so it is difficult to miss.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2008
  5. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Don't get me wrong...I love BJJ...once upon a time I got my blue belt from Matt Thornton. I don't do BJJ anymore (for various reasons) but if a gym opened I could get to I'd be there like a shot.
    I'm absolutely not criticising BJJ. It's a fantastic art. I'm just criticising the view that BJJ is the ultimate art for self defense.
    Bear that in mind as some of my points will sound like the usual TMA rubbish about grappling and BJJ.
    For me BJJ offers a very good tactical structure (close, clinch, takedown, control, submit) for beating one person (that hopefully can't grapple) and is one of the best support systems to bolster other arts although I think it's flawed for self defence.

    It's a little easier to close the distance and bring the fight into the grappler's game than to keep a grappler in the striking zone.

    Agreed. In many instances a lot easier. However self defence is not strikers v grapplers. It's fighters v fighters. Muggers v victims. In some instances you don't need to enter into a clinch at all. Hit-run-keep running.

    2. BJJ proved its effectiveness over striking arts in hundreds of street fights in Brazile, as well as Gracie challenge matches, and of course in MMA.

    Indeed it has. But understandably the Gracies have not documented all the street fights where one guy ****ted the other in the first few seconds and won the fight right there. There's that clip of Rickson fighting Hugo Duarte on the beach at Rio. He slaps him round the face and the fight starts, goes to grapple yadda yadda. If that slap had been a pre-emptive right cross, eye jab or head butt the fight would never have gone to grappling. There was a lot of pre-amble before the fight started where either guy could have pre-emptively struck. Granted I know there was issues of honour and whatnot that would have deemed that a bad way to win in that situation but for self defence a strike could have done it much easier. Challenge matches aren't self defence. Self defence is not pre-arranged.

    3. The dirty trick stand bys (eye gouge, biting, small joint manipulation, etc.) aren't reliable.

    Agreed. Nothing's reliable though. Not even magical BJJ. It's just stacking things in your favour. I agree that the positional dominance hierarchy of BJJ offers a semi-reliable structure for winning fights. However there are methods that can come into play without having to touch grappling at all. Methods that don't stop BJJ being effective but can be added for greater potency.

    4. The argument about muliple opponents fails becuase no art has demonstrated reliable effectiveness vs mulitple opponents (who aren't drunken 3 stooges). If you can't beat one BJJ blackbelt, worry about multiple opponents some other time...

    Partly agree. However...with luck, careful distance management and bags of aggression it is possible use strikes against multiple opponents and drop a couple of people in as many seconds. Not done it myself of course but I've seen it done by others. Is it reliable? No. Does that mean you should never try it? No. You might as well try and hit them first.

    5. Live training. You can go full speed, full power, and try the techniques without holding back (you just stop when the opponent taps). You can't do that in striking arts or all your training partners would be in the hospital. Nothing can prepare you better for a real situation than live training--BJJ had that before it became a dopey MA cliche.

    Partly agree. You make some good points. However boxers seem to train alive and against partners without sending them to hospital every week and develop knockout power (and the ability to apply it in an alive setting) well enough.

    6. Striking opens you up to being struck

    FIGHTING opens you up to being struck. I'm not advocating dancing about at punching range taking pot shots wile someone whales away at your face. I'm advocating the fence, action trigger, pre-emptive strike option as your first line of defence and then see what happens off of that. If it goes to grappling your BJJ will serve you well. If you drop the guy you can leg it. It's not rocket science. If you can drop the guy with a couple of strikes straight off the bat you win the fight.

    You're contradicting yourself a little bit, first you said there is no consensus and now you say there is a sort of consensus.

    I know. Life's odd like that. What I've noticed is that more than one instructor I've met, trained with, researched or whatever has advocated the fence, pre-emptive strike and escape as a good base for self defence. By no means a consensus but a general trend.

    As for hitting freaking hard, that cannot be the basis of any good self defense because of women and children who just don't have the power to make certain strikes effective.

    And they have the power to make BJJ effective? So a 10 year old child being snatched from the street should shoot for a double leg, attain mount and then armbar a grown man? No. He should scream, shout, bite and eye jab until he's free from grabs and run for it. Self defence should be about escape. BJJ is essentially a structure that rewards staying and fighting.

    Instead, they need to learn to escape from grabs and mounts (rape/ abduction). Obviously, BJJ meets those requirements.

    Agreed again. They do need to learn that stuff and BJJ is great for that. However...employ other tactics and it need never go to a grapple in the first place.

    For me the best approach for self defence (for anyone) is to drill a natural looking fence, associated action trigger and pre-emptive strike. Then build upon that base with a support system of more general striking, clinch work, ground work and pressure testing to harden the individual.

    For more info on what I'm getting at look into the work of Geoff Thompson or Dave Turton in the UK.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2008
  6. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    /\ Great post PASmith. Nice to see that the quality of this thread has soared over the last couple of posts! :)
     
  7. EternalRage

    EternalRage Valued Member

    I wouldn't say grappling is necessarily the best, but it is one that you must absolutely have in order to cover all bases.

    I have to agree with Flashlock though, just because a system has the "deadly techniques" or they pay lip service to multiple opponents and weapons, doesn't make it good self defense, since those issues are hard to train properly.
     
  8. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Some more thoughts...

    BJJ was developed by a family of MEN in a very macho culture. That culture enforces its own restrictions on what is deemed good self defence and how an art will develop.
    A Gracie wouldn't get any respect for nutting a guy and running away. The culture almost demanded that the Gracies developed an art that rewarded "fighting" as a means of defence rather than "hitting and running". Therefore their art became about fighting.

    I'm not bound by that sort of macho stuff. I'd quite happily chin some aggressive random chav, walk briskly away and never brag about it again (alright maybe brag a little). That sort of approach wouldn't work for the Gracies. It's too sneaky, not public enough, not dominating enough, not macho enough, not marketable enough and can't be released on a series of extensive DVD's.
     
  9. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    People tend to speak "technically" about real fighting when in fact it is often when you do not wish to fight when you are not prepared and when you are outnumbered.Street smarts being aware generaly tough and the ability to go from zip to 100% attack is more important than "what martial art" Also get out and don't feel good about it NEXT time who knows? I know a few guys who have had to fight on the street (myself included) and not one of them is looking forward to the next one.


    regards koyo
     
  10. pj_goober

    pj_goober Valued Member

    People also have a horrible habit of talking about "street fighting" like it is something that regularly happens.

    Maybe you do regularly get attacked down dark alleys when you are on your own, by large groups of knife wielding drugged up experianced street fighters..... If you do, you might want to change your lifestyle a touch.
     
  11. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    If you're looking trouble you can always find it :rolleyes:
     
  12. Rhea

    Rhea Laser tag = NOT MA... Supporter

    Definitely.

    In my opinion, anything can be a self defence art. For me, in BJJ, the bits of it htat are applicable to self defence are the takedowns, some locks, breaks and the fitness to run away once they hit the floor hard. Also, if it gives you confidence when you are training, you might be able to get out of any fight a little less injured than you would without it.
    Learning to counter is also useful, hopefully after a while training you may be able to adapt it to what's happening to you. BJJ is about innovation and adaptation to me, and I would hope that skills I've learned would be useful.
    I'd mostly use techniques from my more traditional ju jitsu training for the actual "fight", if I had to, but if I did end up on the ground, I would hope that some escapes would come in handy.

    It might not regularly happen, but I would like to think I have instinct, and self preservation always helps. I wouuld hope to not get in fights regularly anyway, but there's always a chance.
     
  13. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    PASmith-it's been said before, but I'll say it again: good post. Excellent points, all.
     
  14. flashlock

    flashlock Banned Banned

    I'm jealous: we agree 95% on everything, but you get all the praise and glory! :D

    My instructor, for the str33t, advocates pre-emptive striking (headbutts and groin kicks), take downs, and RNC. Pretty basic.

    Frankly, self defense is boring! I've never been in a street fight since I've been out of middle school, and I doubt I will again. Nothing quite captures a real street fight, and there are too many variables, but because of the live training and my new level of fitness, I'm confident I could smash the average thug who tried to attack me.

    My first goal, get away!
     
  15. soyez efficaces

    soyez efficaces Valued Member

    always pays to go in with an empty glass ;)

    on a sidenote, I have always found the most skilled students in a BJJ class are the quiet ones. The ones who are quiet spoken.

    paul
     
  16. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    PASmith: Where any of your ionstructors affiliated with Geof Thompson or the British Combat Assiociation (BCA) by any chance?
     
  17. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    When I said that the 'last couple' of posts had improved the debate no end, that included yours and PASmith's. ;)

    Yes - just good basic stuff. In any MA, the amount of stuff that you learn which you'll ever be able to use in a real fight will be very small (for reasons I've addressed in response to your NEXT point!) so I think simplicity is the key. Pick a small number of 'signature techniques' and drill them relentlessly until they are 'contitioned' into you, because in a real fight the only techniques which will be any use to you are the ones you can use on 'auto-pilot'.

    No training can replicate the adrenaline dump that you get in a real fight, and any idea that you can pull off a variety of fancy techniques is wishful thinking.

    The best approximation most MA's can give is sparring of one sort or another. It lacks the 'adrenaline dump', but at least you get to see what you can do under some degree of pressure, because if you can't do something efectively in sparring then you sure as hell won't be able to do it in a real fight!

    For example, when I started doing Judo I really hated being on the ground with someone trying to pin me down. I've always found situations like that really claustrophobic, so my natural reaction was a sense of anxiety. But with practise, that has passed and I'm much more 'comfortable' in that position now. In a real fight, it's obviously the last place I'd want to be, but at least I'd be less likely to feel panic if I found myself there. (Or at least I hope so!)

    Yes, in most situations that's the best possible goal you can have! :)
     
  18. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I'm jealous: we agree 95% on everything, but you get all the praise and glory!

    That's because I don't make blanket statements like "BJJ is the best art for self defence". :D

    Where any of your ionstructors affiliated with Geof Thompson or the British Combat Assiociation (BCA) by any chance?

    No actually. I'd love to train with some of those guys but never really had the chance. Once with Geoff T and Peter Consterdine and once with Dave Turton is all I've managed.
    However...I started training just before Geoff T really hit the scene...so when he did he had a real impact on what I trained and how I view fighting and self defence.

    These days I see a real "meshing" of certain principals and ideas that flow into each other.
    The fence is a good base to start from. It's maybe less effective these days as people realise they are being lined up much easier but it can still help manage distance and space.
    The natural extension from a fence is to pre-emptively strike if you can manage the situation to your advantage.
    If the other guy gets the drop on you then something like the SPEAR comes into play. Something wired in to your natural flinch reaction (notice I've not even got onto BJJ yet).
    The SPEAR can serve as a bridge into your support systems.
    A good broad spectrum "syllabus" of stand up clinch and ground then forms those support systems and gives you the ability to flow into new situations and take advantage of openings.
    BJJ (or a delivery system very much like it) forms a pivotal pillar of that support system.

    That's where BJJ fits for me.
     
  19. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    Cool, what you describe is in essence exactly what I was taught when I dropped in part way through a 6 week BCA course and I do think it's really cool to see examples of that sort of parallel evolution going on with things like the SPEAR system, I suspect the dog catcher stuff the Dog Brothers are doing is similar as well but adapted for weapons, not that I can speak for them having never trained with them or seen proper video of it.
     
  20. flashlock

    flashlock Banned Banned

    Regarding the adrenal dump, I agree, you can't exactly replicate it. But I wanted to share a technique in training my instructor has us do to address that problem:

    He works us till we can barely move, and then has us try our technques. You can barely move your arms, and you are forced to keep fighting, you feel like crap, and everything goes out the window except the most basic movements. He says that's what will happen/ what you'll feel within a few seconds of a life or death situation--so at least he addresses it. I think it's a good concept.
     

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