Judo, BJJ or traditional Jujutsu?

Discussion in 'Judo' started by Bethrezen, Jul 3, 2009.

  1. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    Only if it's been 'borrowed' correctly. Bad instruction in self defence, especially knife defence, could get you hurt, if not killed.
  2. Reuniel

    Reuniel Valued Member

    True, so basically your saying you should be carefull which style of traditional Jujutsu you take so that you dont get ripped of ( or something like that) and end up in MORE danger than you started in.
  3. spidersfrommars

    spidersfrommars Valued Member

    you really ought to read up on your history before saying things like this
  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I really wish people would stop calling modern western jujutsu, 'traditional' when its plainly not. I would also rather train in judo self defense kata then much of the WJJF derived material, and would rather randori with judo guys then most WJJF style guys, especially if 'effectivness' is important.

    Knife fighting? only fools knife fight, track and field is the only reliable training for that.

    edit - have have met and trained with a great WJJF guy, but they are kinda in the minority, buy all means check it out, but judo, BJJ, Thai, Greco or any other type of 'alive' training system is where 80% of your time should go.
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2009
  5. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    Out of interest who was that? PM me if you don't want to name him
  6. Reuniel

    Reuniel Valued Member

    I did and thats exactley why I said it. the origins of judo come from jujutsu which came from aiki-jutsu.
    juDO and aikiDO were both invented in after WW2 as a result of the major western influences.
    do you know the difference between bujutsu and budo?
    and Gracie invented Bjj as a result of his training in japanese jujutsu, but he invented bjj for ground fighting and sport.
  7. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    There is always that danger. There have been many videos posted here where the weapons guys on Map have said fundamental mistakes have been made. Mistakes that could kill you if done for real.

    I also think that a background in sport striking art and grappling art would give a much better foundation to enter the self defence side of martial arts.
    Speed, power and timing are all second nature then.
  8. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    I could be wrong in the following so don’t take what I write as gospel.

    Hopefully someone will correct me if I’m off the mark.

    What source have you used?

    I would say that is incorrect. If anything Jujutsu was influenced by things like sumai.

    Jujutsu itself is just a name for these types of techniques others are for example; kumiuchi, yawara, kogusoku and koshi no mawari. It often involves the use of weapons and does not necessarily mean you are unarmed.

    Names used are, I believe, dependant on the school, the time in which the systems originated and whether it is suhada bujutsu (Generally out of armour and with or without weapons) or katchu bujutsu (with weapons and in armour).

    As stated above this is only my understanding so could well be wrong

    Do you?
    As I understand it the Japanese don’t put so much emphasis on the difference between the two as many westerns seem to.
    What for example would be your interpretation of the words Koryu Budo?
    I’ll leave that to the BJJ guys.
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2009
  9. spidersfrommars

    spidersfrommars Valued Member

    My problem wasn't the claim that there is a lineage from JJJ to Judo to BJJ but that judo and BJJ were invented for sport purposes. Judo was intended as a means of self improvement and as a way of revitalizing and "civilizing" (thats not really the right word) Jujitsu in japan which was at that point considered a dangerous and thuggish activity. BJJ was intended a method of self defense for a smaller person to overcome a larger opponent the competition aspect was more to prove the system and test their skill than as an end in its self.
  10. Reuniel

    Reuniel Valued Member

    yes I do understand and no the japanese dont put much emphasise on which is which because, well look at modern Japan, and it wouldnt make a difference to them if they did.
    koryubudo? never heard of it, Ive heard of koryu bujtsu which would be any martial art from before the 1960s.
    yes you are right in saying modern jujutsu is derived from judo and aikido and karate, I know that all to well as I study a style which isnt even 2 decades old! but real Jujutsu was there hundreds of years before judo and aikido.
  11. benkei

    benkei Valued Member

    Dude he was right. Your idea of the history of Japanese budo in general is way off. I've never seen so many errors in such a short amount of space. Hell go and read wikipedia before you start questioning people of the difference between budo and bujutsu, because clearly you are clueless....
  12. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Dam it I've just lost my coffee :D

    Koryu anything before 1960 lamo a classic!
  13. Reuniel

    Reuniel Valued Member

    your absolutley right BUT they were never intended as a martial study like Traditional JAPANESE jujutsu was which is why I said if he would like the essence of martial arts with the intent of using it then he should rather(IMO) study japanese jujutsu.
  14. Reuniel

    Reuniel Valued Member

    ok fine then almighty one, enlighten me
  15. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    What? Ok would you mind clarifying?

    What is your understanding of the two terms and please elaborate on your last point “well look at modern Japan, and it wouldnt make a difference to them if they did”

    And what is your source for all the info you have been posting?

    As I’ve already, in perhaps an unkind way, pointed out this is incorrect.

    I believe as a general rule of thumb one thing that marks a school as koryu is that it was created before 1876 or round abouts . EDIT: Actually I think the Meiji restoration was 1868 don't know why I've got 1876 in my head. hmm must be a reason.

    Some schools of Koryu Bujutsu also refer to themselves as koryu budo. So what’s the difference?

    Ok one I don’t believe I said that and two I don’t think anyone disputes the fact that Jujutsu is older than Judo and Aikido so I can’t really see your point.
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2009
  16. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Dude stop being a prat just because someone has told you you are wrong.
    If you can’t deal with being corrected once in a while then you should probably take up a less demanding hobby like tiggly winks or something.
  17. Reuniel

    Reuniel Valued Member

    ok so I made a mistake with the date, I didnt know the meiji restoration was in the 18 hundreds all I knew was that the styles created after it were called budo and not bujutsu.
    Thats the difference between the two.
    what I meant by "it doesnt matter in japan" is because after ww2 martial arts studying and teaching were almost censored in a way. In japan no one studies martial arts for fighting purposes and NO ONE teaches martial arts to people who want to use it in such a way. It doesnt matter which is which in japan because they both have the same spiritual aspects as anyother japanese styles.
    we have been arguing about different things then because, I was simply stating why jujutsu would be a better style to study for martial aspects and I also would said that jujutsu is better in a way because judo is derived from it so your learning more detailed versions of the same throws and so on.( I say that knowing that judo has developed alot and has techniques which are unique to judo).
    and for the record I wasnt acting like a prat, I was asking you to enlighten me on what koryubudo was, seein as my mishap with the date was such a lowlife thing to do. dont be a prat when someone debates your knowledge in an attempt to further the knowledge of both parties.
  18. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Again I would say that is incorrect if you look at how the koryu approach things (accord to Draeger) with a focus on combat, discipline and morals in that order compared to gendai arts which tend to focus on morals, discipline and form in that order.

    but the above is only my opinion so not worth much.

    To put all Japanese arts in the same bucket in my opinion is off. Although Koryu are about maintaining the integrity of the art and it’s traditions many do practice with combative intent and not purely for some sense of personal betterment.

    Whereas other arts may well focus just on personal development. For me I’ve discovered that things are certainly not black and white when talking about the martial arts of Japan.

    You would have found if you hadn't of stated everything as you did as fact, with no room for error on your part, then you probably wouldn't of got chuckled at when you make such a glaring error.

    It's been your posting style that has attracted the ridicule more so than your content. Nothing wrong with being wrong but being wrong whilst you’re insisting your right makes you look like a pillock when proved otherwise.

    One reason why my posts tend to contain things like “I believe” or “as I understand it” is because I know full well there’s a bloody good chance I could be wrong.

    As for the Budo Bujutsu thing like I said as I understand things it's not so clear cut.
  19. Atharel

    Atharel Errant

    Judo was not created to be a sportive art. It was created to:

    1) continue the martial traditions of jujutsu, which were dying out. To this end Kano recruited many of the greatest jujutsu masters of his time, combining the knowledge of such varied arts as Tenshin Shinyo ryu, Kito Ryu, Sekiguchi Ryu, Fusen Ryu, and more. He altered some techniques to fall better in line with his principles of kuzushi, tsukuri, and kake, and preserved many others in the kata. The Kime-no-Kata and Koshiki-no-Kata especially are based on koryu jujutsu waza and principles.

    2) Create a system of physical, moral, and mental education for the purpose of creating superior citizens. Through Judo, Kano sought to create better people who would benefit society. In this he was much influenced by the "physical culture" thoughts present in Europe and the US at the time, as well as such famous thinkers as Dewey - as well as his own philosophies native to his Japanese upbringing.

    Because Judo has a shiai component does not mean it is a sport art. It is more than that. Shiai is a method of testing one's self against unfamiliar opponents - it is a subset of randori, which is only part of Judo.

    You can find all of the common "jujutsu style" techniques in Judo kata: standing armlocks versus grabs, standing wristlocks, throws versus bear hugs, etc. And Judo, on top of providing techniques, gives you the ability to actually apply them by honing your timing, coordination, proprioception, and fighting ability through randori and shiai. Something frequently lacking in most "traditional jujutsu" - which is funny, as there is almost no actual traditional jujutsu outside of Japan. Gendai/mish-mash jujutsu, yes, but nothing like real koryu.

    On the matter of BJJ:

    Brazilian Jiu-jitsu was not created from Japanese Jujutsu, but rather from Judo. Mitsuyo Maeda was a Kodokan Judoka - he never trained in Jujutsu, but rather briefly trained in sumo and thereafter only in Judo. When he taught his art to Carlos Gracie, it was common in Brazil to call both Judo and actual jujutsu "jiu-jitsu", and the name stuck. Since then it has developed into its own art, influenced by vale tudo and streetfight usage, exposure to wrestling and luta livre, exposure to sambo, usage in MMA, and so on.

    It is also not merely a sport. Brazilian Jiu-jitsu is a method of self defense and a method of bettering one's self as well as a technical and demanding sport. It was used for most of its existence as a self-defense and fight-based art, NOT a sport! BJJ's rules system for competition did not even exist until the 70s when Rolls Gracie helped write them up. For reference, BJJ has been around since the start of the 1900's.

    BJJ is also a large part of the base of the modern US Army combatives program (together with wrestling, Judo, Muay Thai/boxing, and filipino Kali), and is increasingly popular among US police forces. My own BJJ instructor is the combatives coach for the state police academy.

    Simply put, characterizing BJJ and Judo as "merely sportive arts" is incorrect - almost as wrong as characterizing most jujutsu you'll find outside of Japan as "combative".
  20. Bethrezen

    Bethrezen Valued Member

    Nice post. Then which one will help better on a street fight (1v1). And (not about grappling but) what do you thşnk about MMA? I heard it uses Boxing on hands, Tae Kwan Do in feet, Muay Thai on elbows and knees, Judo to get the opponent on ground and BJJ on ground fighting (Might be wrong, but that's how it's thought here). Seems interesting and effective, what do you think?

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