Ju Jitsu Styles

Discussion in 'Ju Jitsu' started by edudley, May 29, 2010.

  1. edudley

    edudley Valued Member

    Doing some looking around I found the usjju.com site the other night and wow, what is the deal with so many different styles of Ju Jitsu?

    Which ones are legit? What is the difference between Bjj and Jjj?

    Just confusing.

    Ed Dudley
  2. Rhea

    Rhea Laser tag = NOT MA... Supporter

    You'll get a large number of arguments about which styles are legit and which aren't, but it pays to look for what you want in an art that covers such a wide range of things. All instructors are different, but you would be better looking for a style that doesn't proclaim to have a "grandmaster", "soke", or any inflated titles. You want a club that trains safely, and if you want self defence, then pick something that does it properly, as well as being realistic about what you can achieve (IE get them away from you, and run.)
    There are some that speciallise in sport versions, more like BJJ but with stand up fighting and then to the ground, similar to Judo but with strikes of all kinds allowed.
    There's more traditional forms as well, but I don't know much about them so I will leave someone else to fill that in, as well as expand what I've said.

    To your other question, BJJ is a sport, in gi and no-gi versions, that starts on the feet but the majority happens on the ground. JJ has more of a throwing emphasis, mostly from strikes and defences against them. Both include chokes and stranges, and locks.
  3. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Just to point out there's nothing wrong with the "title" Soke
    IF it is being used correctly.

    However if it's used by a non Japanese then it's pretty likely it is, as Rhea calls, it an inflated title.
  4. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

  5. edudley

    edudley Valued Member

  6. Rhea

    Rhea Laser tag = NOT MA... Supporter

    Exactly what I meant. It's something that's become rather dodgy in the last few years.
  7. roninmaster

    roninmaster be like water

    gross motor movement based juijutsu. all of these focus on alot of sparring, groundfighting, takedowns, throws, that use big/large body movements and leverage.

    Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (BJJ)
    Submission Wrestling
    Fusen Ryu
    10th Planet Jiu Jitsu

    Traditional jiu jitsu

    Daito Ryu
    Can Ryu
    Small Circle
    Danzan Ryu
    Goshin Ryu
    Hakko Denshin Ryu

    these generally focus on taking your opponent down with grappling following a finishing strike. almost all focus on fine motor movement such as wrist control or trapping punches/kicks as there thrown. Not easy to pull off!

    I personally like the first bunch. since techniques to me seem more realistic, and competition against a resistant opponent in sparring, is readily available via competition.

    however syle depends on what you make of it, and how you apply something to your own way of doing things. All these arts are, is lists of different tools for the job.
  8. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member


    How much Takenouchi ryu and Araki ryu have you seen or trained in?
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2010
  9. roninmaster

    roninmaster be like water

    none. Never claimed to either. I got that off the submissions101 website.
  10. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Then maybe you should at least have left a link to the site for reference sake ;)

    Even though you haven't directly claimed to have had any experience of them your post implies you have some knowledge, it makes it look like you have had some exposure to them.

    This is only a small thing but it becomes important when you are making statements about what certain ryu-ha are or aren't, especially with classical ryu.
  11. roninmaster

    roninmaster be like water


    about us section.
  12. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Cheers for that.

    I notice that the idea that the one set was gross motor based and the other fine motor based was your input, I can't see that in the "about us" section of that site. While I might not disagree completely with that I don’t necessarily agree either, especially when you consider some of the older systems.

    One big difference between schools like Takenouchi-ryu and the more modern types is that the older ones had, for want of a better term, a weapon centric approach. On submissions101 with regards to jujutsu it says:

    "It was developed to aid the samurai in unarmed combat, should they be without their weapons on the battle field"

    In fact, as far as I know, these systems often involved the use of weapons and jutjutsu was often about closing quickly with the "threat" and preventing him from using his weapons against you; long/short sword, knife, whilst using you own side arms against him and of course you have to factor in the idea of fighting in armour too. These are major influences for a system they define it and shape the strategy it employs which in turn shape the techniques which express this strategy.

    That's all just based on what little I know, don't take it as gospel.

    In my mind I tend to keep TMA separate from what I see as classical MA. Whilst something like Aikido may be a TMA it isn't, IMO, a classical one Takenouchi ryu on the other hand is.
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2010
  13. DaitoAlrighto

    DaitoAlrighto New Member

    Takenouchi-ryu and Araki-ryu are koryu (old school) arts. No commercial dojos or public access. You have to know someone and be referred to get into a school or study group. AFAIK, Ellis Amdur is THE Araki-ryu person in the continental U.S. He is menkyo-kaiden, which means it is his right to teach and pass along the art. Wayne Muromoto is a respected Takenouchi-ryu teacher in the U.S.

    Daito-ryu is not koryu, but it is modeled after koryu and is like a koryu in its habit and school/system structure. Getting into a legitimate Daito-ryu school is like being admitted into a koryu, at least in the case of some of the more secretive or introverted schools such as the Daito-ryu Kodokai.
  14. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Some koryu are more open than others and, imo, you can't really generalise as it tends to be on a case by case basis for koryu.

    I'm not a 100% about Mr Amdur's line of Araki ryu, or any line for that matter lol, but I believe being given inkajo signifies being allowed to pass on the tradition.

    I'm not sure how that fits in with the other licensing of the tradition or if it equates to Menkyo Kaiden.
  15. DaitoAlrighto

    DaitoAlrighto New Member

    True that some koryu are more open than others. But IME, the ones that have the deepest content tend to be less open. That is understandable, I'd think.
  16. roninmaster

    roninmaster be like water

    this is kinda random. but why is that?

    it seems at first glance like its just adhereing to centuries old customs or traditions just because. This may come off as a bit superfluous but why such the contiuous seperation into who's allowed to join or learn what. regardless of your method its practically a must to cross train anyway, regardless of what the origin, lineage,or focus is.

    as for the older post about takenouchi ryu:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQXtTxJ7_nA"]YouTube - Takenouchi ryu[/ame]

    iv'e done Goshin ryu as well my current BJJ. doesnt seem all that different from certain goshin ryu techniques. except certain moves seem a bit more intricate. which you could argue isn't really a good thing.

    except from the inclusion of sword, and tanto practices. Goshin trained with alot of knives, but focused more on current weapons like clubs, and gun disarming.
  17. roninmaster

    roninmaster be like water

    also, that is affirmatively untrue. while BJJ may have some techniques that are made for sport use. It's primary goal and purpose is for self defense. Its easy to make this statement from people who have only watched on read about it. but without actually training you miss out on all the self-defense aspects.

    my school for example teaches you the self defense part in fundamentals class, then the sporty stuff in advance.

    also on a side note. the self-defense sport thing is bashed to much, way more things go into self defense then just what system you study. I find that proper knowledge of your situation, combined with quick reflexes and resourcefulness will usually decide the survivor.
  18. DaitoAlrighto

    DaitoAlrighto New Member


    Maybe some of it has to do with the nature of the "owners" of these systems. Koryu, like many of the crafts, arts and artisanal skills of Japan, tend to the property of a family, and each generational head (soke) has the right to determine who gets to teach his family art, and who gets to learn it.

    So, if one family wants to maintain tight control of its family ryu, for whatever reasons, the process of applying to study may be tighter and stricter, and the ryu itself may be more secretive. They may demonstrate at public or semi-private embu, but otherwise might be a lot less publically visible than arts that "belong to everyone and no one."
  19. roninmaster

    roninmaster be like water

    but doesn't that hurt the art more then help? outside from limiting you knowledge to whats been passed down. It seems that it would leave alot of knowledge and responcibility to the soki. if said soki died or was otherwise incapable of spreading the knowledge down, then the system goes with them.

    doesn't the inclusion of others help in the long run. example: there will always be someone who knows shotokan karate, or ed parkers kempo karate. because of so many different disciples, even though you get the occasional bad apple.
  20. DaitoAlrighto

    DaitoAlrighto New Member

    In our Western mindset, which considers the arts and trades to be in the public domain, it would be natural to assume exactly what you said: that opening the art to the world would assure its survival and maybe even update or somehow improve upon the original model.

    The traditional Asian mindset (Chinese, Japanese, etc.) is more of this: This is the art of my clan, and it is our ancestral property. Therefore, if we choose to teach it to you, it is our perogative to decide how much you are taught, and what you are allowed to do with it. We might even decide to teach you superficial skills and keep the "real stuff" for our own kin and/or chosen successors. Because it's ours. Period."

    This is a pervasive attitude even today, and is why you may see an MA master who has all these amazing skills, but none of (or only a couple/few of) his students can demonstrate them. Chinese internal MAs are rife with it, and so are certain Japanese internal arts. They may even claim to have schools open to the public or at least not too hard to join, but even these "open" schools hold the goodies for a special few and teach lesser skills to the bulk of the dues-paying students.

    Many traditional ryu (schools) in Japan believe that if they open their art to all and release control of it, it will quickly become corrupted, altered, watered down, stolen (that is, others will claim it as their own and not credit the originators), etc. They actually are quite right about that! Look at all the schools of karate there are out there nowadays, run by "renegades" whose provenance is not revealed, or is exagerated or an outright lie (I was a personal student of Ed Parker!).

    I can respect both sides of the argument. There are some very substantial koryu that require you to be recommended for membership by a member in good standing, and you must swear an oath to an ancient Buddhist deity and do keppan (blood oath -- you cut your finger and use it as a seal/signature on a written oath) that you will never display your art publically or teach others others outside the ryu, or even discuss ryu issues with outsiders, lest you be stricken dead by the deity (more likely you'd just be excommunicated from the ryu, but why risk it? ;) ). If I were the family head of one of these ryu, I would only care that whatever students I have would be loyal and train hard; I wouldn't need to have millions of world-wide students whom I couldn't keep tabs on or make sure they were carrying the name and skills of my ryu honorably.

    OTOH, seeing some of the amazing arts out there, I'd hate to see some of them go extinct for lack of followers. Still, that's Darwin for you. Besides, true skills have a way of being preserved within tiny pockets, to be re-introduced or re-invented in new venues and times. Nothing of genuine value is ever truly allowed to perish, it just has to adapt into a new form suitable to the times.

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