‘Ju Che’ to ‘Ko Dang’ name change

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Rob T., Jul 2, 2008.

  1. Rob T.

    Rob T. Valued Member

    I thought Choi Jung hwa split the ITF because he felt he was voted in as president and then got kicked out.

    Your situation is that you broke away from the ITF, are independent of their influence which has left you free to do what you think is best for your students, yourself, and the Art.

    I know about the 'official' meaning but as we know it's just whitewash over the true meaning. I feel the whole philosphy has no place in TKD (or anywhere else for that matter) and am glad some groups have removed it.

    I also agree with you that calling it Ko Dang is damn stupid, there's got to be thousands of names / meanings they could have used.

    Rob
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2008
  2. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Thats part of the story yes, but the whole story has to do with NK connections and opposites of opinions between father and son on this matter!

    Im just a small fish and to do that would be a bit silly as my students would be the only ones doing it. A big organisation can do it as they have thousands of members all inline! Besides, I have no wish to change TKD, just establish better training methods and more indepthness in certain areas I feel are under-rated!

    We do, the average student doesnt unless its explained to them!

    I get ya and really the whole philosphy is only really there if you chose to look deeper, like I said, the majority of students dont. However, you said to keep the pattern but change the name in an earlier post - surely if you feel this way the whole pattern should be replaced as its not just the name that refers to it all, the pattern diagram, ready posture and even soem moves all have hidden references to Kim!

    Ive been thinking about this and if it had to be renamed and I was charged with that task, I would rename it pattern "Jung Tae" after its creator, with its meaning describing why it was created!

    Stuart
     
  3. Rob T.

    Rob T. Valued Member

    That would be quite a cunning name change! If your students shouted 'Jung Tae' after they finished at a comp everyone would just assume they shouted 'Ju Che'.

    I would have thought the only other time it could be a problem is grading time and I'm sure an external examiner would be fine as long as you told him or her in advance.

    Rob
     
  4. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    LOL.. I never thought of that! Still, if I did have the call on it, to fall inline with the rest of the patterns, new meanings would have to be found for the number of moves and the diagram (Incidently Kodang is different to Juche in these areas also), i would also chnage the ready posture!

    Gradings wouldnt be a problem, competing on an equal stage as other TKD schools would - Id have to explain the change to the judges at comps etc or the students may get marked down accordingly! However, TBH, I have never really thought about it until now!

    Stuart
     
  5. Toe-Job

    Toe-Job Valued Member

    I dont really post much, but I thought I'd respond here.

    This is my 2 pennies, for what it is worth!!!

    Unfortunatly this sort of thing is why I no longer train or teach Taekwondo anymore, the art that I have dedicated most of my life to.

    Taekwondo has become less apealing to train in in recent years due to a number of factors, politics being one of them.

    I think heads of organisations need to wake up and see what is going on in the martial arts world rather than having board mettings on what pattern should be called what. "Honestly, does anyone really care"

    Heads of organisations should be focusing there efforts on making Taekwondo a well respected art once again rather than these stupid ramblings.

    I really like what Stuart is trying to do, hes trying to make a difference, if only the heads of the different organisions would do the same.
     
  6. Rob T.

    Rob T. Valued Member

    Generally people don't, however the naming of 'Ju Che' is a little different IMHO.
    There's nothing to stop any TKD instructor doing the same as Stuart if that's what you want.

    I always chuckle when people moan about politics in TKD, in my adult life I've been involved in Karate, Ju Jutsu and BJJ - in each there's just as much politics as TKD, it's the way of the world when you get a number of people together.

    Sometimes I get a bit annoyed by politics but never enough to stop me doing what I love - training and teaching TKD.:)

    Rob
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2008
  7. Richard Khafagy

    Richard Khafagy New Member

    The ICTF calls this pattern "Ch'ang Hon", which is "Juche" in all but name. The difference lies in the facing, as Juche starts facing 'C' which is the opposite facing to all other patterns (which I was informed was a veiled insult to the North Koreans by the founder).

    We still practice Ko Dang as the fourth Pattern for IInd to IIIrd Degree.
     
  8. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Do mean the practioner has his/her back to "C". The diagram [​IMG] (sorry, cant seem to get it to display here, so click link) has the student start on D and face away from C!!!

    Maybe thats the facing away part! If so then, why change it back! Sorry, dont get it as the ICTF changed it because they didnt like the Juche thing either!!!

    Stuart
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2008
  9. Rob T.

    Rob T. Valued Member

    Hi Richard, welcome to MAP.

    Ju Che doesn't start facing 'C' (unless this is a change by ICTF), it starts on 'D' facing away from 'C'.

    If this was an insult I wonder what Gen Choi had against Cho Man Shik (pattern Ko-Dang) and General Ul-Ji Moon Dok (pattern Ul Ji) as these start in the same way.

    Rob
     
  10. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Im sure I just said that :rolleyes:

    Good point Rob. Never been into the Start at A move to CD and all that so never really looked at them much, so well picked up my friend.

    Stuart
     
  11. Rob T.

    Rob T. Valued Member

    Yeah, I was agreeing! Or I may have been concurring :).

    Cheers,

    Rob
     
  12. Alexander

    Alexander Possibly insane.

    Aha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!! [This is supposed to be manic laughter - it's just difficult to write.]

    Does it not strike you as odd how, in protest against the submission North Korea requires of its people and its dictation of values that they must accept, your examiners have asked you why the day a pattern was renamed was the darkest in its history?

    The Black Prince is another English great. Usually I try not to think with nationalistic inspirations... but there are just a few people who seem to be too damn cool for me not to feel a massive sense of pride.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2008
  13. gemtkd

    gemtkd Valued Member

    But isn't ko-dang a completely different pattern? Or did I misread the first post. I was always told that Juche was a new pattern to replace Ko-Dang, therefore, wouldn't it make more semse to change the pattern altogether instead of just changing the name to something it's never been referred to?
     
  14. Rob T.

    Rob T. Valued Member

    Spot on Gem, 'Ko Dang' is a completely different pattern, however ITF-C is recycling the name. The trouble is other groups still use the original 'Ko Dang' others will continue to call the pattern 'Ju Che'. I think a whole new name would have been a better move (that's what the ICTF did when they called it 'Chang Hon').

    They could have changed the pattern, but really it was only the name that reflects the ‘philosophy’ of the North Korean government which has lead to the death and suffering of millions of people.

    Rob
     
  15. gemtkd

    gemtkd Valued Member

    Thanks,
    i was a little confused there for a second?!! I agree an entirely new name would have been a much better idea, as it's going to cause a lot of confusion amongst different feds?!!

    But, whatever floats your boat eh?!!!:):)
     
  16. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    Stuart,

    The fact that you teach Juche is probably the one thing I have utter disrespect for when it comes to you. Sorry, bro. I just can't compromise there.
     
  17. paddy ska

    paddy ska Valued Member

    Oh, that was a bit harsh.......
     
  18. MasL

    MasL Banned Banned

    Whenever I read threads like this it really does make me LOL.

    I got out of TKD a long time ago (wipes sweat off forehead) but I was in it or around it long enough to know enough.

    The question here should be what is the right thing to do. I know some people in TKD and the ITF have difficulty with the concept of "doing the right thing" but in this case it's pretty straightforward.

    What should be done? Simple. Juche should be eliminated from the syllabus and Ko Dang reinstated. That's is all there is to it. Perhaps with some official statement regarding the fact that Juche was introduced on the orders of the North Korean government who were running the ITF at that time (still running ITF-NK) and that the wrongs of history need to be addressed. That would be a start.

    However lame this apology looks it can't be any more ridiculous than the official ITF reason for introducing Juche (need more techniques blah blah blah) or the reason for dropping Ko Dang (last in first out... pmsl).

    Let's not forget Mr Cho Man-Sik (Ko Dang) for a minute in all of this. A true patriot who served a long period of detention before his execution. Known as the "Ghandi of Korea" for his courageous yet non-violent protest under Japanese occupation. A true patriot. Not some mealy mouthed so and so who lived a life of middle class comfort under Japanese occupation, travelled to Japan to take full benefit of the university system there, joined Funakoshi's ultra-nationalistic karate dojo, joined the Japanese Imperial army, then when
    his country finally found independence spent the next decades going on about how anti-Japanese he was.

    Juche is the political ideology of Kim Il Sung. That's what it is. All the attempted diversions about "man is master of his own destiny" is just mumbo jumbo aimed at diverting from the bare bones of the matter. "Man" in Juche refers to the masses. "Destiny" is defined by the wishes of the Great father, who of course always acts with the consent of all the people. Well at least those who wish to live a life outside a prison cell (if they're lucky).

    The North Koreans took control of the ITF in the early 1980s. The exact deal will probably never be known. Prior to this NK had embarked on a program of kidnapping , mainly Japanese and South Koreans to train their spies. NK secret agents were even operating on the streets of London, from where one Japanese national was drugged and transported to NK.

    Following the opening of the Gold Star North Korean bank in Vienna in 1982 and the relocation of ITF HQ there around the same time on the orders of the NK leadership. The operation of NK secret agents became much easier. Hence no more kidnappings.

    Following 9/11 pressure was put of Austrian authorities to "get tough" with regard to NK activity in their country. Austria had been chosen by the NKs specifically because of its secretive banking laws amongst other things.

    The following report makes interesting reading:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2003/07/23/cnkor23.xml

    The following passage is obviously relevant with regard to NK funding of the ITF:

    "The Austrian media has reported that the cash-starved North Korean regime is believed to earn over a billion dollars a year in hard currency by selling opium and rocket weapons technology alone."

    So that's drug money and gun (rocket) money we're talking about when it comes to "funding".

    So Juche out. And as for any talk about being "disrespectful". It really does make me laugh (in a: I'd better stop because I'm going to puke in a minute, kind of way).
     
  19. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Spot on that MasL.

    TAGB don't do Juche so it's not relevant to me, but a gesture like that, even if it is only symbolic, would be good for the ITF(s).
     
  20. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Yes, if its changed at Association level, thats what I would have done as well, rather than just a name change. out of interest MasL.. did you have to do Juche when in the UKTA? Some good info there btw.

    But what if it was relevant to you (and Rob), what if the TAGB did Juche instead of Kodang... as a TAGB club, what would you do (if anything)?

    Stuart
     

Share This Page