Joined Judo - Grrrr! Is this instructor crazy?

Discussion in 'Judo' started by jujitsuka07, Jun 9, 2008.

  1. righty

    righty Valued Member

    I does look like a nice throw. However, you can clearly see that uke is preparing to breakfall, especially with the arm ready to come down and slap the mat.

    You may not teach ukemi separately from throws. But surely for an absolute beginner (first week of training) would you throw them hard first thing without any explanation? Would you at least demonstrate and say something along the lines of 'OK, when thrown this way, try to fall like this'?

    I know you don't have to practice ukemi separately from throws. But for someone who has never done a throwing type art, wouldn't you at least give them a little talk on the basics, eg...when you fall...
    - Keep your head tucked into your chest
    - Never reach out to the mat with your arm
    - Try to slap the mat with the arms (can depend on the fall but mostly yes)

    To me breakfalling isn't just about learning to fall safely when thrown. It's about being able to let your partner throw you the best (hardest) as they can without being concerned about hurting you. It's not just your own training you are helping with.
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2008
  2. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Of course with a beginner we would not execute a powerfull throw. We concentrate on teaching the TECHNIQUE as HE is applying it he sees how the advanced student ukemis.
    Then we execute the technique SLOWLY on him letting him "feel" the throw and the unbalancing.

    THe first practice he learns the first principle DO NOT GET HIT. So it is mainly body co-ordination and alignment that is studied.

    He MUST learn NOT to fall if not unbalanced properly therefor we always show the unbalancing used in the technique and show how to fall safely from it. We use ukemi as an escape from the technique and WILL NOT FALL if the technique is not effective.

    At an advanced level strikes are also used to unbalance so solo training type ukemi is not appropriate.

    The techniques are "modified" to allow ukemi.

    below the strike is kept high so that a ukemi is possible were it taken deeper it would be ara waza severe technique where no ukemi is possible.The training is demanding BUT always with restraint in mind.

    regards koyo

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    Last edited: Jun 13, 2008
  3. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Wot?!?! Are you saying BJJ is useless!? :p
  4. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I think bear is speaking of some of the "aikido" clubs (where he was encouraged not to return).

    There you shall see ukemi done at the touch of a hand. Advanced practisioners even fall without being touched.

    Would you believe that the word ukemi is used because BREAK fall is intimidating to noobies.


    regards koyo

    My god THIS is aikido???????????

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    Last edited: Jun 13, 2008
  5. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    It is against my longsword. :D

    BJJ does what it does very well. I wouldn't go to ground in a fight, in a competition where I knew nobody was going to step in from the sidelines and dance on my head I would. Horses for courses.

    The Bear.
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2008
  6. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    I think Koyo has said it better than I ever could.

    The Bear.
  7. jujitsuka07

    jujitsuka07 Body by Pizza Hut!

    SORRY! I realize now that it doen't make sense. Sorry - I've not been getting very much sleep lately!

    Yeah, prior to this class, I couldn't fathom it either.

    Well, the club has multiple arts and multiple instructors. This was the first Judo class though, but perhaps some of the students in the other classes have trained with this instructor before (perhaps at another location/time)...maybe I could ask them when they introduce ukemi into class. Yes, my JJJ background certainly helped.

    Yeah, but even if you don't PLAN on falling, ukemi still helps to develop your movement and amount of control(to a point), would you all agree? Seems it would benefit to teach it even still.

    You know what's funny though, I was sure the instructor wouln't throw anyone until he taught ukemi. And even though he knew that I had previous MA experience, I also assumed that he would not throw me without asking me how my breakfalling skills are, but I was wrong. He went to demonstrate O Soto Gari, so he just picked me to be his uke without so much as a question about my ukemi abilities. That was weird...
  8. BSR

    BSR Valued Member

    My instructor does not really teach much breakfalling either. We do forward rolls as part of our warm-up and he reminds people to slap the mat when they're thrown but that's about it.

    Fortunately for me, I came into Judo with 5 and a half years of experience in Hapkido where we do breakfalls out the wazoo (though ironically don't practice actual throws half as much as in Judo). Because of this, I probably have the cleanest breakfalls out of anyone in our class. Whenever I get thrown everybody else usually stops and looks because of the loud smacking sound of my hand on the mat. The kids in the class seem to think I'm getting bodyslammed and act surprised when they see the old guy pop right back up.
  9. jujitsuka07

    jujitsuka07 Body by Pizza Hut!

    :D I get that too. They all go "...WOW..." and look at you like your some kind of superhuman or something. I'm like "What? Don't you guys do ukemi?". :D
  10. Marnet

    Marnet Banned Banned

    Respectfully request warm ups and break falls at the beginning of the class and if he doesn't want to, then leave.

    Break falling is the single most important aspect of the martial arts and without it your safety is at serious risk.
  11. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    The problem with placing such a high priority on ukemi is that many students will fall even for ineffective techniques one need only look at many aikido clubs to see this, The priority should be on tori being capable of executing effective technique without injury to uke.

    The instructor in question did not injure anyone and simply because he did not emphasise ukemi is thought to be crazy.:confused:

    Leaving a club because the instructor does not behave as you wish is questionable. Unless he ie behaving unreasonably.

    Many of the ukemi training is not relevant to the breakfalls needed for specific techniques. Often I see this form of training and the students "breakfalls" directly over his forward foot to "roll"

    Unbalancing takes place to a kuzushi most often over the EDGE of the foot. Next training session perform a breakfall in this manner and you shall see a great difference from the way they are usually executed in a solo manner.

    Ukemi has it's place but proper spirit, body alignment and correct technique are far more important.

    regards koyo
  12. Rayson

    Rayson Valued Member

    I think ukemi in classes these days is over emphasized for tradition's sake. In my JJJ class, we practive without fail, every class. While I think a begginer should learn the basics, after a while I dont think they should be practiced relegiously. Falling from a throw and doing a back/side fall are not the same.
    I kinda agree with Bear in that, falling from a throw is better ukemi practice than doing rolls and falls.
  13. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    I've broken many a fall with my face and I'm just fine.
  14. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    and handsome I MIGHT add:)

    regards koyo
    emphasis on might.
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2008
  15. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    Plus I have most of my own teeth!
  16. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    And you mix it with the that IS to be admired.

    regards koyo
  17. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Ha, I remember we were training sweeps and he dropped my so hard I though the building was going to come down. Took a five mins to recover from that one.

    The Bear.
  18. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I do hope you executed a gracefull by the book ukemi.

    regards koyo

    Which begs the question what happens when someone who has trained with others who are "expert" at ukemi attempts a technique on those trained to counter instead of fall?.
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2008
  19. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Any time you go to a good boxing gym for the first time you will be put in the ring against a more seasoned opponent, to see if you'll come back next time.

    Maybe that's what your Judo instructor was doing - testing your mettle.
  20. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    You get a sore time of it. Though Randori should stop any of that. Expectations are a bad thing in Randori! People don't expect me to hoof them in the sack when I do a uchi mata to them, but it happens! :yeleyes:

    Speaking of expecting in Randori and uchi mata, I had a terrifying and sore experience with it. Up against an 18/19 stone 4th Dan. His throw is a backwards through, gets it on everyone. Takes a high grip, hugs you close then game over, back you go. One session I managed to get him down to the mat a few times, not cleanly - no points would have been scored against him - but this ****ed him off. He took his grips and I could feel the intent, he was all business! :D I then thought "i'm going to block his throw to really **** him off", cause, well, I'm an arsehole like that! :p So he gets his high grip, I get pulled in close, and I am ready. The SOB goes the opposite way!!! Utchi Mata, so over I go, doing a somersault wondering why the hell I am upside down. Boof, hit the mat. Think "son of a..." when all I can see is an 18 or so stone white ball of fury descend down on top of me. Turns out he really put all his weight in the throw and he did a somersault too! bang, down he lands right on my ribs. Wasn't too bad at the time but afterwards they were rather tender.

    So yeah, never try to out guess your opponent, especially if they are a lot more experienced than you!

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