John Wills / Machado seminars

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by Hissatsu, Jun 24, 2009.

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  1. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    This is very confusing. The fact that there is one other post on the entire internet which repeats the same rumour only shows that at least one other person believed a similar rumour. You didn't originally present it as a rumour that may or may not be true however, you presented it as a fact to demonstrate how different BJJ was to Ninjutsu. if you don't know/care whether it's true or not then it would have been a much better idea not to use it to support your argument.

    You didn't originally state that it was a rumour that may not be true and only applied up to 2003, you stated it as a fact. It's only since you have been called on it that you have changed to a more nuanced position. I would have much more respect for your argument if you had came out and admitted originally that you don't actually know if it's true and that you were presenting a likely exaggerated version.

    I can't as I don't have a time machine and I'm not interested enough to do my own investigation. I'm following the debate on here and if anyone else finds out other information I'll read. I don't find the story your friend told you or the other post on the message board particularly compelling. THough I'm perfectly happy to be proven wrong.

    I don't believe he has called a BJJ black belt a liar could you provide a quote? I also believe that in addition to being a Ninjustu practitioner Daniel may in fact also be a BJJ practitioner or at least a grappler but maybe he could clarify? The fact that he practices Ninjutsu however doesn't immediately make his points invalid. It may do in your eyes but that's not something everyone would agree with. I don't like many things to do with Ninjutsu but I'm not going to immediately discount someone simply because they practice it. We recently had a Ninjutsu guy come visit our BJJ class and he was a nice guy and was actually a decent grappler. I don't think that's common but I do think it's possible to find.
  2. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    If you think Ninjutsu is such rubbish, why do you spend so much of your MAP time in that forum and, if it's ok for you (a non-ninjutsu practitioner) to spend so much time and energy in the Ninjutsu forum, then surely its OK for Dan to come and ask legitimate questions in the BJJ forum?
  3. Connovar

    Connovar Banned Banned

    Sorry I must have missed the change in MAP terms of service where it now specifies that possible slander is an appropriate behavior by members. Please the cite reference.
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2009
  4. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    Actually Flash as i read it Dan isn't so much calling your freind/instructor a liar as doubting his existence!
    Let's turn this around for a moment , say someone came on here and claimed a Bujinkan guy had easily tapped a BJJ purple belt (not even black) , i'm quite sure you'd be jumping up and down for names and times ,and if they weren't forthcoming you would quite rightly shout liar from the roof tops.
  5. Hissatsu

    Hissatsu End of the Road: Moved On

    I have been training in Submission grappling for the past 3 years with Gokor Chivichyan and Gene LeBell.

  6. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Cheers for the clarification Daniel.
  7. Hissatsu

    Hissatsu End of the Road: Moved On

  8. Connovar

    Connovar Banned Banned

    You two boys should get a room! :hat:
  9. Hissatsu

    Hissatsu End of the Road: Moved On

    Maybe we can get the room next to the one you and Morra are sharing. :)
  10. Morra

    Morra Valued Member

    Why would I present it as saying, "Oh, here's a possible rumor: bam!" I mean come on... I thought it was a fact. I heard about it from a reliable source, later he qualified, and so I corrected the statement with the updated information.

    All that has been dirsproven, the ONLY thing, is that John Will doesn't/ didn't do the challenge for EVERY seminar. My source clarified this. We don't know now if that's just a rumor, or fact, or exagerrated. But if John Will did the challenge thing before even one single seminar, that's more challenges than any at a BJK seminar.

    All you've contributed is to come on here and say, "I don't find that compelling". "I don't find him very credible." You wouldn't find anything credible unless I had video tape of it happening with sworn statements from all participants!
  11. Morra

    Morra Valued Member

    I didn't say ninjutsu was rubbish, I said HIS ninjutsu rubbish, meaning his attitude, intellectual dishonesty, and his hypocrisy, which seems to be a trait of many a BJK westerner.

    And if someone did think ninjutsu was rubbish, that's the best place for them to spend their time so they could counter the absoulte BS which might go on there.

    All I said, and many BJK practitioners agree, is that the ranking system is very messed up, and people like John Will actually test themselves against people. I cited this example about seminars, and it was a bad example because I don't have all the facts, but there are a 1000 other examples that would have proved my point: about rank being connected to real ability, and demonstrated in reality.
  12. Morra

    Morra Valued Member

    Absolute world class guys! You're very lucky. LeBell is a legend, and I've seen clips of Gokor: he makes it look simple!
  13. Connovar

    Connovar Banned Banned

    Morra I dont know what you know about the the BJK but here is the readers digest version. The BJK was started by a Japanese "chiropractor" who couldnt make his own Judo skills work against a western serviceman. So he found a Japanese man who had collected all sorts of techniques and then alleged it was ninjitsu etc.

    Hatsumi who was a never a soldier or been in combat has lots of claims that he in the only surviving ninja grandmaster and a has original scrolls to prove that but curiously enough never lets a neutral expert evaluate his claims.

    As such he has devoloped this large profiitable organization of which few members are Japanese. Most Japanese just shake their head in disbelief at he and his foolish gaijin followers.

    You ****ed off Hissatsu because you once again brought to daylight the uncomfortable and embarassing fact that people in the bujinakan are essentially rather poor fighters. Many are in fact scared of fighting. Others avoid it because they realize they would just get their ass kicked.

    So they spend their showing off to each other and in demos at schools etc and on the internet their marvelous skills. All are against fully compliant uke. They try to cover up inadequacy by developing a bloated and silly ranking sytem as if somehow if they get enough stripes on the black belt it will somehow magically turn them into a capable fighter.

    Even though they do very little if at all any true ninjitsu, they always find a way to alude to it their training in a pitiful attempt to impress others. Your average Marine knows much more about camoflage and evasion than do these folks. As expected some of the uninformed public fall for it while the rest of the MA world just chuckle and shake their head at such foolishness.

    Many have a cult like obsession with Hatsumi. Most of them love to pretend they are Warriors when in fact they couldnt survive 5 minutes on a modern battlefield.

    They are in essence a Japanese RBSD group except whereas at least the Western RBSD crowd may knowing something about the use of modern weapons. Instead the BJK play with swords and throwing stars. Like the RBSD crowd they are obsessed with self defence and street fighting. They spend a large amount of their time passing back and forths legends and rumors about various instructors and other people in their organization having these amazing fights which miraculously never are documented.

    At any rate that is the sad state of the BJK world. Once Hatsumi dies or runs off somewhere with all the money, then it will collapse when all the huge egos in the organization begin fighting for power and prestige. Then we will only have things such as the comedy channel for a good laugh!

    I will admit the above is a bit tongue in cheek, but sadly is generally quite true.
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2009
  14. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Sort of, you've edited your original statement to be possibly true not a definite fact, to possibly apply to only up to 2003, to refer to some seminars and not all seminars, to only apply to non-BJJ/non grappling seminars and you've also stated you don't care if it is true or not. That's very different from your original post.

    The point is nothing has been proven either. All we have is a claim which reads exactly like a sensationalised story and for which there is no evidence but your friend, who you wont identify and one other random poster on another internet forum 7 years ago. The burden of proof lies with the one making the claim.

    And all you've contributed thus far is a story that you have heavily revised and you are happy to repeat and yet state that you don't care whether it's true or not. I don't need a video and sworn statements I just need more than you hearing from an unnamed mate and a post by someone who sounds like a BJJ nutrider from 7 years ago.

    The only reason I care about this at all is that I find sensationalised BJJ stories as irritating as sensationalised Ninjutsu or any other mother arts stories. I think sensationalised stories actually damage a styles credibility and as such I'm curious whether this is a sensationalised story or an amazing true story.

    I'm not out to get you. I'm just offering my opinion on what has been presented.
  15. Connovar

    Connovar Banned Banned

    Dont be to impressed. Using Daniels criteria I could go around claiming I am one of Randy Coutures training partners. Danny tends to float around but curiously never gets a verified rank in the grappling world. Lots of talk as always.
  16. Hissatsu

    Hissatsu End of the Road: Moved On



    I have probably been to roughly 150 classes with Gene and Gokor. I assume you have been to as many classes with Randy Couture?

    What kind of rank do you think people get in Sub-Grappling, Connovar?

    Curious as to where this is going....


    PS. Oh... and where are your video's again?
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2009
  17. Hissatsu

    Hissatsu End of the Road: Moved On

    What exactly was the purpose of this Connovar?

    If you want our subforum over here in your threads - keep it up.

  18. Connovar

    Connovar Banned Banned

    Let me see. yes ,rank in sub grappling you have dirty garage. oily garage etc. Oh thats right you dont ever test your skills just like in the BJK
  19. Connovar

    Connovar Banned Banned

    Oh, I just shudder with fear.:rolleyes:
  20. Morra

    Morra Valued Member

    LOL! Nicely done. I do appreciate the tongue-in-cheek aspect, especially the irony of Dan demanding proofs while his entire BJK system is probably based on lies.
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