jiu jitsu

Discussion in 'Ju Jitsu' started by ade1971, Jan 11, 2013.

  1. ade1971

    ade1971 Valued Member

    I was just wondering if anyone does jiu jitsu simply for self defence .Also does anyone think it is an effective martial art i am orange belt at the moment any thoughts on traditional jiu jitsu as well as i do kempo
     
  2. Alansmurf

    Alansmurf Aspire to Inspire before you Expire Supporter

    Stick with it if you enjoy it and are getting what YOU want out of it.

    Smurf:)
     
  3. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    I do it just for fun these days, but I know a number of people who have successfully walked away from self defence situations by using stuff they learned in their jujutsu classes.

    Given the rarity of actually needing it, I decided some time ago that it would actually be more costly and painful in the long run to continue training - I still do it because of how much fund it is to train!
     
  4. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Odd, to almost being a paradox, that for many of us, the more we train, the less likely we will use our training
     
  5. rne02

    rne02 Valued Member

    I would like to train purely for Self Defence, but as I am a Kyu grade I am bound by the syllabus as to what I can and cannot do. Therefore I am forced to train some techniques which are only for the dojo and would be utterly ridiculous in a Self Defence situation.

    If I ever do reach Dan grade then I will be free to do what I want, and then I will only train for Self Defence until such tiem as I feel comfortable with my (assumed) ability to defend myself. After that I will train purely for fun and to "keep my hand in".
     
  6. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Do you have an example?
     
  7. rne02

    rne02 Valued Member

    Oh yes, lots, although trying to describe them in writing is easier said than done.

    The whole 1st Dan syllabus is a good example. When I was first shown it I thought "These are ridiculous, I would never use any of these".

    About 9 months later we had a visit from an Instructor and after watching us run through it he took us to one side and told us to forget about these techniques being self defence as "we all know they are nonsense, just think of it as putting on a show for your examiners, like a dance."

    Don't get me wrong, there is some great stuff in the style, but there is a lot of "not so practical" stuff as well.

    Having said everyone is different, and some of the stuff I don't think it practical, some of my fellow students count as their favourite techniques.
     
  8. Kuniku

    Kuniku The Hairy Jujutsuka

    I've used jujitsu in some self defense situations, not much in the way of throws, but some locks and holds can be very handy to restrain someone.

    I think the problem you can find is that people still new to the art can find a misplaced confidence in their skills, you get your say orange belt and i've seen other students suddenly think that they are unstoppable because they've learnt 2 belts of basic techniques.

    Jujitsu skills only really become transferable outside of the dojo (ie self defense) once they become second nature (IMHO) as in once you get to higher grades, I'd say 1st kyu/1st dan you'll have been repeating very similar techniques and movements that you have a certain muscle memory for them. Techniques have to be applied without hesitation to really work.

    Much like how in ground fighting if you're give a straight arm and you think "oh a straight arm I should do an arm bar" then its already too late and you've missed it, your body needs to be moving as soon as the arm is given to you and you think about it while cranking the lock on =p

    Regarding as to what is practical, I'd argue all of it has some application, otherwise it probably wouldn't be there. It might not seem that the technique taught might be useful in that particular way, but later on you might get taught another part to the technique or another opening into said technique etc that unlocks more possibilities which you might find more useful.
     
  9. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Could you take us through some of these nonsense techniques?

    There really shouldn't be anything in there that isn't of use, if it isn't directly related to physical fighting techniques then it should be developing physical attributes, teaching tactics or strategy or in some other way useful to the student as far as transmitting the system.

    If it is just dancing then I'd question why it is in there, where it is from and possibly the understanding of those teaching it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2013
  10. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Blue dude speaks well, as usual.

    If you enjoy it then all is good, just make sure you are clear on what the system offers and what you can actually get out of it in that regard.
     
  11. Kuniku

    Kuniku The Hairy Jujutsuka

    as usual Mr Winchester is right, following on from my reply - I'd be more tempted to say that if it just looks like dancing, or if you don't see the practical use of it, perhaps you just don't understand its full meaning/application yet?
     
  12. rne02

    rne02 Valued Member

    OK I'll give it a go.

    Uke grabs your hair with both hands, pulls your head down and brings their knee up to knee you in the face.

    Defence: Left had reaches over the top of both their hands and grabs their left wrist. Right arm comes across in-front of you face to block the knee strike, you then turn 180 degrees and with the grip you have on their wrist draw them forward and so a sweeping hip throw.

    Now to my mind for a technique to work on the street it has to fill two criteria. It has to be a) brutal, and b) simple. This is neither of those things.

    It is overtly complicated, is difficult to execute, and as I have been training it for 12 months now I know it would be virtually impossible to pull off unless I were Derren Brown and could see what was coming.

    As I said in my original post "... I am forced to train some techniques which are only for the dojo and would be utterly ridiculous in a Self Defence situation." there is nothing wrong with the technique for the dojo, but what is ok for the dojo isn't necessarily ok for the street.

    Now, as you have rightly pointed out, it is in the syllabus for a reason. It is there to demonstrate a principal, which I don't have a problem with that as the principal is solid, it is just the actual application in terms of SD which is in my opinion flawed.

    It is like the first four techniques in the beginner grade. They are wrist grabs. They are not really practical, and you would never dream of doing them on the street as there are numerous more effective and easier things to do, but that is not the reason they are there. They are the first four techniques you learn because they are very very good at demonstrating the two basic principals of JJ which are Kazushi, and going with you opponents attack rather than trying to fight it.

    I often tell my fellow students we are learning principals, not techniques. The syllabus is not there to teach you if bad man does a) you have to do b). The techniques are there to demonstrate the principals, and how you apply the principals will be entirely up to you.
     
  13. Kuniku

    Kuniku The Hairy Jujutsuka

    can you explain why specifically you don't think that would work? it sounds slightly different to our counters to hair grabs, but if I understand the technique correctly from my mental image then I don't see why the technique wouldnt work?

    the only factor is the blocking of the knee strike imo, but if you can get your arm to the knee and use that to ride the momentum then the rest should follow suit easily.

    The brutallity of the move is largely down to how you perform it, remember in the dojo a lot of techniques are performed in safer slowed down manner, even most hip throws are done quite slowly, but if you turn the shoulders further and faster even on the mats a hip throw can be very painful.

    The technique you've described suggests you are blocking the knee and applying a wrist lock to pull them into a sweeping hip throw. A lot of counters to hair grabs aren't done correctly, because a lot of the GUYs that do jujitsu don't have long hair, so there is nothing to grab. I do have long hair, and if someone has a solid handful of hair, or two in this case, you need to apply pain to the hand or wrist to remove the grip, otherwise it will only get more painful for you.

    the reaching over grabbing the wrist, and probably holding it to the head, then turning will no doubt apply a wrist lock that will release the hair, if its anything like the similar techniques I'd say its going to be effective anywhere. (assuming you've managed to stop the knee) once they've let go of the hair through your wrist grab (in theory if you're applying it in a SD situation they will either let go - so you carry on, or they hold on and you continue the lock, potentially breaking their wrist =p) you pull them into a sweeping hip throw - again in an SD situation you would throw them hard and fast - if you're on a hard surface that will hurt a lot, and once they're on the floor you can either apply a lock or finish with a strike.

    I agree that you are learning a principle, and it is important that you step back and realise that principle. In this case you're learning how to get out of a hair grab, and following it up with a throw.

    What else would you suggest for getting out of a double handed hair grab when you're pulled forward as you described?

    Without knowing what wrist grabs/locks you're talking about I can't vouch for the effectiveness of the techniques perse, but I know from being on the end of wrist locks in class that a lot of wrist based techniques are very effective, and if done at speed will have very brutal effects.
     
  14. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    The problem is not the technique - the problem is that you have not drilled it often enough or hard enough to actualise it. As an orange belt you have barely learned to walk upright let alone actually fight

    There are very few techniques that don't actually work - there are lots of high percentage vs low percentage options though

    If you drill a wrsitlock for hours and hours and hours against legitimate pressure and resistance you will be able to make it work. Are there other techniques that you may be able to get to work quicker? absolutley! But that does not mean that other things don't work

    Forget "pick up and play" - this is martil arts and as with any skill practice is everything.
     
  15. Kuniku

    Kuniku The Hairy Jujutsuka

    I think you better worded what I was trying to get across in my posts =p

    I will add further emphasis to people underestimating the difficulty of removing hair grabs if you've actually got enough hair to grab on to though =p something I've had to learn to do properly due to having long hair =p

    (the worst one is beard throws, they hurt like a mo fo! >_<)
     
  16. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I trained with a bujinkan guy once who threw me with a sideburn...damn that smarted!
     
  17. Kuniku

    Kuniku The Hairy Jujutsuka

    yeh I bet. During my 1st Kyu grading I was partnered with my sensei, as I was the only student going for 1st kyu that day, the last throw on the syllabus was a variation of a one handed body drop, instead of hooking my head he grabbed a full handful of beard and pulled me over his leg, I got told off for using such colourful language in mid air by the head of our association who was still laughing his ass off at me =p
     
  18. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    I think we all know that with Gendai Budo it's entirely possible to be training something that has next to zero utility for fighting and/or self defence.

    Jujutsu runs the gamut when it comes to how effective it's syllabus and training approach is, so it's not really possible for anyone to assess how self defence orientated/effective your school is without specific reference to your class.

    In some cases some training is better than nothing and in others; its worse than nothing.

    If self defence is an important part of your training FOR YOU, then I'd suggest doing some reading on the subject because fighting ultimately is the smallest part of that equation and therefore the most relevant tools are often non-physical. I'd also recommend cross training in /sampling some judo and seeing how that fits with your current training in terms of class approach, student skill and your own ability to hang with similar ranked students. and taking an honest look at your own physical fitness to see how you could improve your physical attributes.
     
  19. Alansmurf

    Alansmurf Aspire to Inspire before you Expire Supporter

    Chest hair grabs .......now that smarts......guarenteed to result in serious retribution ....:woo:
     
  20. Kuniku

    Kuniku The Hairy Jujutsuka

    Un/fortunately I'm not blessed with an overly hairy chest, my Sensei did jokingly promise that if I ever turned up to class with my nipples pierced he would throw me by the rings... Lol
     

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