Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Kobudo, Apr 13, 2012.

  1. Kobudo

    Kobudo Valued Member

    Why do people still insist on writing Jitsu?

    I really hate it, it may sound like Jitsu, but is written Jutsu!!!

    It's not an either/or type of situation, the translation is Jutsu.

    Rant over!!!

  2. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Actually it's written 術 :D

    It sort of is an either or thing. As I understand it a lot of this stems from early attempts at transliteration and as a result you have a number of methods.

    I think the standardised way to romanise that particular kanji is jutsu but you see others.

    Look up how MAP member antilie, think that's right, "spells" jutsu it's something like jytsu.

    Zhoo Zheetsu is the way to go. :D
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2012
  3. Seventh

    Seventh Super Sexy Sushi Time

    Ju Jutsu?
    Ju Jitsu?
  4. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    You say potato, I say potato.

    Damn, doesn't work when written down.
  5. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    柔術 [じゅうじゅつ] juujutsu

    実 [じつ] jitsu

  6. Griffin

    Griffin Valued Member

    Potayto/Potarto, Hows that :)
  7. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    jiujutsu, jiujitsu...

    To the OP: Don't get wound up about it. Sometimes it's simply a question of the person not knowing the distinction. Other times, the change actually means something. The standard, as I understand it, is to say "jitsu" when you're talking about BJJ, for instance. And that change is consistent enough across BJJ that it means something. The language change marks a cultural change.

    Reminds me of the term "kali" in FMA. Some people reject it entirely. I prefer to think of it as marking a particular point in the history of FMA.

    Languages are living things. Rather than simply labeling it "wrong," try to look for some underlying significance.

    My advice. Pay me two cents for it and you'll probably get change.
  8. Kobudo

    Kobudo Valued Member

    I don't think the changes as mentioned in BJJ should be accepted.

    It's a Japanese word, if you don't want to use the correct Japanese word call it something else.

    Dean, I accept your point about differences, but can you give an example of an art that has heavy Japanese involvement, like Koryu, that would use anything other than Jutsu when romanising the kanji? I can't think of any

    I saw an analagy somewhere that was something like 'It's like someone who doesn't speak English saying that Beer should be spelt Bear, they sound similar but you wouldn't want to order a bear in a bar' - (sorry if I killed it)
  9. Kobudo

    Kobudo Valued Member


  10. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Good luck with that. :)

    Unless you live in France there isn't some sort of governing body for the use of language.
    "Jitsu" is a historical legacy that actually tells you something about the provenance of BJJ.
  11. Kobudo

    Kobudo Valued Member

  12. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    No offense. But that's not really your call. Or mine. Or any one person's. Common use shapes the rules as much as the rules ever shape common use.

    No. It's a romanization. An attempt to approximate a Japanese word using an English tongue. Just as "jitsu" might be an attempt to approximate a Japanese word using a Portuguese tongue. We don't have a monopoly on translation.

  13. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    What you are arguing over is actually how to approximate the pronunciation of this 術 when using our alphabet, dialect, pronunciation etc

    I bet the BJJ pronunciation is probably closer to Portuguese sounds than English. Also as far as I know BJJ tends to use Portuguese terminology throughout, so why shouldn't these changes be accepted?

    It's an art with Japanese roots which you can see in the name but the same name also shows the direction it took and the time frame it developed.

    If at that time the accepted form of romanising 術 was jitsu then why is it wrong?

    It's similar to a ryu-ha using older terminology and kanji than what is used currently.

    Methods of romanization change so someone used to using an older or perhaps "less established" method may write it differently. Like I said check out antilie's posts, that member is Japanese and confused the hell out of a lot of people with the spelling they used.

    Thing is it's the kanji and context that carry the weight, romanisation is for ease of use and approximation, imo. I've a number of videos etc of enbu and the pronunciation by native speakers can vary a great deal. Just as English will between the various regions and dialects.

    If you want to be really picky why aren't you writing it as juujutsu?

    I do recall someone mentioning on e-Budo about some ryu-ha still using jitsu, can't remember which ones or what thread.
  14. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Ah I see the guys beat me to the punch. :D
  15. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    Meh. By that rationale, Americans should change "honor" back to "honour", likewise with colour/colour, and aluminum/aluminium. And seeing as the OP is from the UK, perhaps you should excise all the French and Latin loan words and teach only "Anglish" in schools, or perhaps Anglo-Saxon. How cool would it be for school kids ot be able to read Beowulf's original text? ;)


    -Mark (who as a once dedicated Latin classicist, often joked that no civilized language had the letters x,j, or z)
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2012
  16. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    I suppose another example might be 兵法 (stratey, tatics, art of war) which is hyouhou, heihou or even hyoho.

    As I understand it heiho is a more modern pronunciation but one of the ryu-ha I study uses hyoho.
  17. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    Does it really matter that much? Neither romanisation is correct in terms of proper pronunciation, and the suffix "jitsu" was in common usage before the standard romaji were adopted in the first place, so one could argue that it's actually historically correct.

    There are far bigger problems to get wound up about than how people pronounce and write a word that is only an approximation of the phonetic sounds of a language that doesn't use the same syllables as our own.

    For anyone that has seen me correct this in the past, I've mellowed somewhat ;)
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2012
  18. slapjitsu

    slapjitsu Banned Banned

    well I for one did Ju Jitsu. it says so on my grading certificates.
  19. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    What's the kanji on the certs?
  20. Herbo

    Herbo Valued Member

    This can all be solved by people just doing Judo ;)

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