Jigoro Kano...enlightened?

Discussion in 'Judo' started by Edgeorge, Jun 6, 2010.

  1. Edgeorge

    Edgeorge Valued Member

    Morihei Ueshiba, founder of Aikido has docmented/claimed that he has had three moments of enlightenment in his life, with the most famous one being the one back in 1925 after he fought and defeated a kenjutsu master unarmed.

    Are there any claims that Jigoro Kano had any moments like that?

    Thanks in advance,
    George
     
  2. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    A good place to start would be reading accounts of his life. I'm sure there is more than one account out there. There are also numerous interviews with Jigoro Kano as well.

    A good one to start with is:
    http://www.judoinfo.com/kano.htm

    Note the quotation on the very first page (bold emphasis is mine):
    One issue that you will have is you have to decide if both Jigoro Kano and Morehei Ueshiba both held the same definition of 'enlightenment'. If they did does that reflect a commonality amongst Japanese martial artists of that era? If not... what does that tell you about the differences and the commonalities between Kano and Ueshiba?

    I suspect you will find that there is no one single definition of the term. The term will also be culturally relative as well. There are numerous questions I think you will run up against... Does enlightenment happen spontaneously... Doe it happen over time and then manifest as culmination of years of experience?

    In a secular sense of the word... once it's stripped of all it's mystical trappings... enlightenment isn't as dear as many would have you believe. It's being aware and having a full comprehension of a situation. Again... sometimes that happens all at once... or at least it appears to you all at once... and sometimes it's a long slow process. Some days you go 'AH HA!' and other times you go... 'sheet... I knew this was gonna happen'. Both could fall under the term enlightenment.

    I'm curious why you seem to have such a focus on this issue of 'enlightenment' of Japanese martial arts icons?

    Have you defined what enlightenment means to you? Do you accept what Ueshiba considers enlightenment?

    Seems to me you will want to begin to hammer out a working definition in this sort of a topic. A decent place to start is to understand the term a bit better:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightenment_(spiritual)

    FWIW... I think you will find many similarities between Kano and Ueshiba. If I had to proffer a guess whether or not Kano was enlightened... by the secular definition of the word.. then... yes.. most definitely.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2010
  3. Edgeorge

    Edgeorge Valued Member

    The definition of enlightenment to me is a state of high understanding of the universe and the way it functions; which results in peace and joy, plus the removal of all malice, which results in oneness with the universe and the disattachment from anything that may concern you.
    I am particulary intrigued by this concept and how it can be achieved through martial arts, as many have said, for obvious reasons.
    Who wouldn't like to be enlightened, after all?
     
  4. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Ok so you have hammered out a working definition for yourself.. now a good step in a deeper understanding of what Ueshiba and Kano are on about would be to consider and contrast that definition with theirs.

    Is it the same?

    How has the time in which they lived shaped their ideas?

    Were they able to execute the concept?

    If so to what extent?

    How is it extant in their respective martial arts?

    Is it more or less as possible to achieve this state today as it was back then?

    Do you think what Ueshiba talks about is possible?

    Is Kano's attempt at creating a system like Judo compatible with his concept of enlightenment? Is it compatible with yours?

    Are you subscribing to a secular definition of enlightenment? Or a religious or mystical one? A mixture of both?

    Just food for thought. I'd say if you're truly interested on the topic there is absolutely no shortage of reading to be done.
     
  5. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    watch less movies and do more fighting there is the path to enlightenment through martial arts
     
  6. Nutjob

    Nutjob Jimmy Tarbuck

    you need this training video...

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWVhiIisH30"]The Last Dragon Ending - YouTube[/ame]
     
  7. Edgeorge

    Edgeorge Valued Member

    Sounds sophisticated.
     
  8. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    more than you would think
     
  9. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Wasnt it a kendo master with a shinai, which is a very different thing to a kenjutsu master with a big sharp pointy sword.
     
  10. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    More then a blueray player.
     
  11. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    He is likely to experienced 'flowstate' which is a kind of enlightenment. Flowstate is most likely what Morihei Ueshiba expeirenced when he did unarmed randori against the kendo master.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)
     
  12. Edgeorge

    Edgeorge Valued Member

    I'm not sure if it was a kendo or a kenjutsu master, but what I do know is that he was a naval officer, and yes his weapon was actualy a bokken. However, bokkens would be used by warriors in the past as lethal weapons. Some great swordsmasters would prefer to use a bokken rather than an actual sword. Read that on a book. I don't know why they'd do that though...:rolleyes:
     
  13. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Ive seen many different versions of the story for example:

    http://www.shobukan.dk/dokumenter/osensei.PDF

    ''1925 a naval
    officer and master of Kendo challenged him, but Ueshiba Morihei defeated him without
    fighting. The story tells that he could sense where the Shinai (bamboo sword used for
    Kendo) would strike before the naval officer made a move''
     
  14. mike.Budo

    mike.Budo Valued Member

    Greetings each
    In reply to Edgeoge, Some Samurai would not stain their weopons with human blood,So I have read .There is a story of a Samurai who made a weopen out of an oar and defeated his opponent .Can't for the life of me remember his name Sorry lol
     
  15. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Musashi carved a huge bokken from an oar on one occasion, this gave him a massive reach advantage. He then beat his opponant to death with it.
     
  16. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Well if it's Miyamoto Musashi that you're on about... and you read a book on him... surely they must have touched on his rationale behind showing up to a sword fight with a bokken carved out of a wooden right?

    If not then I'd say read more and dismiss less. There is plenty out there on him and the reasons why he would have been using a wooden bokken against a real sword. It runs the gamut from fiction to fact. But again... only you can read it and take it in remember it. No one can force you to.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jun 15, 2010
  17. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Some samurai tested their swords on local peasants.

    LOTS of samurai were CRAP swordsmen.

    Musashi is said to have use an oar against Sasaki Kujiro to counter the extra long sword Kujiro used.(strange that in the book of five rings that Musashi supposedly wrote..there is no mention of Kojiro)
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jun 15, 2010
  18. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Dam big stick!

    Which is ironic when you think of the bokuto used in HNIR :D
     
  19. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Musashi used bokken on several occasions,rationale being that swords can bend or break-a bokken isn't likely to break against a katana.A bokken will however,break skulls.

    "Some Samurai would not stain their weapons with human blood.."

    What bushi would deign to stain?What kinda warrior class is that?

    Koyo's remark about testing on peasants reminded me of the former bushi turned monk who wrote "Hagakure" leaving the temple one fine day to practice his sword technique on prisoners at the execution grounds.He didn't think very highly of those who had no stomach for such practice.

    As one reviewer commented,"He may be a monk,but Kwai Chiang Kane he ain't!"
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2010
  20. pakarilusi

    pakarilusi Valued Member

    Train Hard. Enjoy it. Live Life. Help people.

    Enlightenment?

    Overrated, imho...
     

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