Japanese and Okinawan karate

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Grass hopper, Sep 19, 2013.

  1. Grass hopper

    Grass hopper Valued Member

    hey everyone of the karate forum. we have a good mix of karateka here practicing both japanese and okinawan karate. and i'm sure some who've practiced both!

    this isn't a thread to debate which is better, whatever you like is better for you. my intention for this thread is for the newcomer to familiarize themselves with some of the differences they are likely to see between japanese and okinawan karate.

    i'll start. i've never practiced japanese karate, but i have a black belt in okinawan shorin ryu shidokan. stances aren't as low as i've seen in shotokan, and things are kept fairly simple. kicks to the abdomen and front kicks are often aimed at the pelvic area rather than stomach or chest.

    our takedowns tend not to be spectacular, but rather simple and direct. overall there is little showmanship.

    if i where to think of a complaint, it would be the lack of ground fighting and grappling. although i love my punching and kicking, it would be nice to mix things up with an arm bar here and there.
     
  2. armanox

    armanox Kick this Ginger...

    Another Shorin Ryu student here (Grass Hopper's school I guess is a cousin school to mine). Our stances (and those from the Goju Ryu school we're friends with) are more 'natural' then the deep stances of Shotokan. Not arguing the merits of either - they both have them. We mostly stick with front kicks, punches and elbows. Our throws tend to be Judo based - Mr. Miyagi took Judo when he was younger and thus saw a lot of Judo throws in the kata. Some joint locks. We generally don't do point sparring in class, nor do we focus on competition (I'm the odd one in the group). We're also much less formal then most Japanese karate school's I've seen, but that is more dojo and instructor variance, methinks.

    For more throws and such, I was taking Aikido for a while (and do side work with a friend who's a 2nd dan in Hapkido), which gave me a different view on some of the kata bunkai. Also, I believe that Iha (I believe Grass Hopper's school was under Iha's organization?) took Aikido at one point, which makes their bunkai have a different perspective.

    The other big comment I'll make on kicks is we generally don't target kicks above the abdomen.

    Just my view on the differences.
     
  3. matveimediaarts

    matveimediaarts Underappreciated genius

    You don't do much grappling? I do okinawan karate (****o-Ryu) and there's loads of grappling applications we practice that come out of the various forms like Tenshin Happo and kata. Isn't grappling a common trait in all the Okinawan styles? :confused: I'm new to karate, so I just assumed that.
     
  4. kernewek

    kernewek Valued Member

    The history of the development of the various styles of karate can be rather controversial, so, yes, let's stay away from who is right and wrong and just accept we all do things differently :)

    Our style, as defined by our founder, is largely based on 'original Shotokan', in other words the Okinawan rather than Japanese style. From what I have seen of Shorin Ryu, it isn't a million miles away from what we do - shorter stances, and simple, direct strikes.

    There is another interesting comparison - our founder also studied Judo, and we do take downs and a certain amount of groundwork. Not exactly grappling, though. Perhaps it depends how you define it. Grappling to me implies things like Judo and BJJ, who deliberately spend time on the ground in order to control an opponent.
     
  5. Grass hopper

    Grass hopper Valued Member

    that's right, shorin ryu shidokan is from iha. my school doesn't report to him anymore but we have a lot of that influence.
     
  6. Grass hopper

    Grass hopper Valued Member

    not really, okinawan karate is very varied.

    take goju-ryu for example. lots of grappling, but then in shorin ryu there isnt much. just joint locks and throws. the idea is that we try not to get entangled with any one opponent.
     
  7. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    How would you separate achieving joint locks/throws from 'grappling'?
     
  8. armanox

    armanox Kick this Ginger...

    I think it depends on your definition of grappling. I consider joint locks, throws and take downs to all be stand up grappling myself. I wonder if Grass Hopper is referring to just ground work?
     
  9. armanox

    armanox Kick this Ginger...

    Well, technically Shorin Ryu Shidokan means it traces through the late Katsuya Miyahira (Shidokan was the name of his school, just like Funokoshi's school was the Shotokan)- both Iha's school's and Miyagi's school's are 'Shidokan' (both are senior students of Miyahira), we just don't usually use the term.
     
  10. Grass hopper

    Grass hopper Valued Member

    they are grappling, but remember i said not much grappling as opposed to none.

    there is some, and it appears in the form of joint locks and throws. but they are far from the focus.
     
  11. Grass hopper

    Grass hopper Valued Member

    we could spend hours discussing the finer points of karate politics (rather unfortunately) and i am aware of what you say. but today, shorin ryu shidokan as the term is used refers to the dojo, and offspring dojos, and related schools of iha.
     
  12. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter

    In the Japanese karate I did, there were very very simplistic joint locks ie. omete/ ura gyaku and ura ONI kudaki ( after a fashion)
    This was taught as 'self defense' I never seen or heard of bunkai at all, ever.
    Admittly I was only 1 st kyu, who knows whats Dan ranks did :)

    In goju ryu conversely, we get taught heaps of bunkai from every kata inside and outside variations. Sometimes I might know the applications before the kata.
    Many have a lot of grappling, not much I haven't seen before from bujinkan training, IMHO these arts work well together for me at least.

    I'm not knocking my first school, I still greatly respect my teacher, but I think people can only show you what they know, which I respect ( rather than making crap up, they've sort of seen elsewhere)

    Quality instructor over style I think as a basic rule of thumb.


    Inquirey was bunkai always taught everywhere else? ( 20-25 yrs ago) or is it 'new' obviously I mean 'new to be taught' in the last 10 yrs ???
     
  13. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    That depends on the system / association you were in.

    Some systems teach and taught what they maintain to be the 'true' bunkai.
    Some systems have been teaching the same bunkai for a considerable amount of time, though often this was bunkai clearly created with the modern sport sparring in mind in the 40s/50s.
    Some have only focused on bunkai in the last decade or so.

    What you have to bear in mind is that for many systems, the transition to a more sport orientated focus in karate as a means of achieving Do through physical endeavour and dedication, overtook the need/desire/knowledge to train such things.
     
  14. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter

    Thank you for your reply, it was Shukokai karate under nippon dai budo Kai, still got my original licence, sadly I don't resemble the pic these days.

    Which is very sad IMHO and the exact opposite of what I'm currently looking for( have found) to a large extent.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2013
  15. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Could you rephrase? I'm confused.

    Is it the opposite of what you are currently looking for? In other words you're looking for self defence orientated stuff but have only found sport orientated stuff.
    Is it the opposite of what you have found? In other words you have found self defence orientated stuff but were looking for sport?

    Or were you just seeking some sort of mystic oriental secret passed down from generation to generation? :bang:
     
  16. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter

    Neither really, you wrote;

    Quote:
    Which I understood to mean original karate had been watered down to make it more popular by focussing on the sport aspects and dropping the deeper martial art elements. To which I said was the opposite of what I was looking for, but probably should have written 'what I want to do' as I looked at a few dojo and binned all the ones that were 'tournament champs' etc.
    Each to his own though, that's most likely some other people's reasons to train, be a champion gain trophies etc. just not my preference at this time.

    Is that any clearer?
     
  17. Grass hopper

    Grass hopper Valued Member

    i'm with you hatsie. i'm not a fan of sport karate, mostly because it often makes poor karateka. i've known people that are fantastic at point sparring, but given a minute of full contact would just outright break.

    if that's your thing then fine, but i do wish that so many dojo's didn't go that route.
     
  18. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter

    Absolutly, while we do have a bit of sparring and I do enjoy it, it's certainly not my reason to train. I wanted good kihon- kata- bunkai, which luckily I've found. I'd like a bit of free expression in a sort of self defense scenario, but I suppose you can't have everything :)
     
  19. Manila-X

    Manila-X OSU!

    That is the problem with many Karate dojos in The Philippines where the major ones emphasize on the sport / point system aspect rather than traditional self defense.

    It is why I train in Kyokushin as it emphasize in combat that you can use in the streets plus defense.

    I consider it Japanese despite having Okinawan roots. Kyokushin can also be considered as Korean since it was developed by a Zainichi.

    But again, many dojos here go the sports path as it is more accepted in various institutions especially schools and collages / universities.

    On the business side, such brings in more profit to the organization.
     
  20. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter

    I was actually in one of those old book stores ( 2nd hand and new) last Friday night, the girl I was with tottered off to her thing, I made a beeline for the sport/ M.A section :)

    There was an old book there caught my eye, it was by mas oyama ( as a young man). It looked pretty good as I flicked through it.
    I didn't buy it as I'm studying goju ryu, but I'm kind of thinking it would have been $9 well spent!! I think I'll pop back in there and see if its still there!
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2013

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