ITF shame

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Passenger32, Mar 9, 2013.

  1. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Yep - we seem to have different things we look for. It's all good.

    Hey now - no need for insults. I was liking the conversation.

    Not particularly. Like I said, we use GM Cho's materials for reference and are pleased with them. I gave some quick feedback on the videos you posted in a fairly quick/concise way, not too unlike your comments on the video I posted. I didn't get the impression you have any investment in those videos you posted and I don't have any investment in the GM Cho's beyond our use as a reference item.

    Well, I'd guess you do since you quoted me just to say that you don't care.
    I am sorry if that statement hurt your feelings - I wrote it to let you know how your statement came across. I put the end on there about "tone not coming across in text" to see if that's how you meant it to come across or not. By your reply I guess you "don't care" how you come across.


    Be that as it may. I was enjoying the discussion but it seems to have outlived its usefulness and is probably way off topic now. I'll be happy to answer any other questions you'd like to ask, otherwise I'll catch you on another thread sometime.
     
  2. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Valued Member

    I didn't know calling you "silly" was an insult. I just thought you were being silly because you stated you didn't want to get into a "my master is better than your master" type conversation ... and then promptley listed several reasons why your master was better than "mine" :D That is actually pretty silly, IMO.

    I pointed out you were being condescending and judgemental because you were. My statement "The difference is I don't care" was made with regards to people doing Taekwon-Do how Gen. Choi designed it or not. (Frankly, I don't.) I should've been clearer.

    Your post didn't hurt my feelings. As I said, you infered things on your own. That's how it is sometimes online. My point was that you were engaging in the same kind of behavior you accused me of (darn preposition at the end of a sentence). I can certainly point out the irony without having hurt feelings :)

    But, again, my statement about not caring is regarding to how people practice Taekwon-Do. I said it several times already so I thought it was obvious what I meant, but it apparently wasn't.

    Pax,

    Chris
     
  3. marco

    marco Valued Member

    Hi guys, might I pitch in to this interesting conversation?

    Back in the mid-80’s when I was part of the UKTA(ITF) under Master Rhee Ki Ha a few of us (Black belts) were invited by the newly formed TAGB under Dave Oliver to attend a demo in Scotland with Hee Il Cho on display. The TAGB boys were keen to attach themselves to a known TKD ‘name’ and had chosen Master Cho.

    I have to say that seeing the man up close and personal doing the business was very impressive. Very ITF like in his techniques, tremendous power and ability. Cho is famous for his incredibly dynamic jumping kicks which went a long way to cement the ‘look’ and differences between TKD and say Karate back in the 70’s and 80’s.

    So Thomas, when you say you can see the power from that video I know what you mean, but you have to see it in the flesh Chris. Cho was old school ITF at the time, I felt we could have just transitioned there and then with no problems into his style as we performed our patterns and techniques very similarly. I’m surprised he’s surfaced teaching KKW style. If your school has him as top man then it has very good credentials I would say.

    Having said that I liked the Moon Moo display, very controlled kicking ability. Patterns are so individual now in their interpretation.

    The shots of Aristides sparring demonstrates I think the folly of having a low guard when moving in, a puncher will take your head off. Having done both ITF and WTF styles I still prefer the ITF approach to sparring and this “full contact” argument drives me mad, as if you have to be doing full contact or it doesn’t count. Many times technique goes out of the window and it just looks like two guys kicking each other up the ****.

    When I trained in the WTF style I found sparring very limiting on technique as they all seemed to have this sport sparring attitude drilled in to them early. So as they geared up to deliver all this full contact destruction, doing the Aristides thing dumbfounded most of them and they were out of it before even being in it. Just my preferences though.

    This is a good thread and the historical knowledge displayed by you chaps (ChrisPillerTKD, Thomas and TKDStudent )is outstanding, it’s made for really interesting reading and I’ve gained lots of new info.
     
  4. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Valued Member

    Oh, I agree. That's why I said I don't put too much stock in youtube videos and suggested people that Thomas (or anyone else) should go and train with to see power generation and speed. Video can be an accurate record of what happens but you often lose a lot of nuance that's going on at the same time.

    Also, like I said, I'm well aware of GM Cho's many accomplishments. It's why I tried to heavily qualify my criticisms of the video Thomas posted.

    I don't think GM Cho is teaching KKW style Taekwondo. Nothing I've seen from him indicates that he is. He is KKW certified, IIRC, but that doesn't mean anything when it comes to teaching their syllabus.

    Pax,

    Chris
     
  5. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    I like how you stated that - I agree for the most part.

    As far as I know he is NOT teaching KKW style - he has his AIMAA and they teach Taekwondo along the lines as he has learned (and if I recall, their hand work has a bit of boxing influence in it).

    He does have a few videos and books that serve as references for WTF patterns. I think they came out shortly after the Taegeuk patterns were introduced (probably to fill a market niche). He performs them in the same mode of speed and power as he does his other patterns and his stances are pretty deep, something that is being changed a bit with the 'official' standardized forms videos being produced by KKW. We use his videos and books for references because they are clear, have good descriptions, and serve as a nice (inexpensive) reference for our students.

    Like I wrote earlier, our school (and I) and transitioning to the KKW standardized way of patterns, but the resources are not as affordable. The GM Cho books and videos are much cheaper and, in my opinion, much clearer in showing everything when used together. I've watched the KKW videos and looked at the book and find it less user-friendly. But we are shifting over (although we will keep the GM Cho books/videos as references as well).

    We respect him a lot and use his videos and books as references but we are NOT affiliated in any way with him.
     
  6. Passenger32

    Passenger32 Valued Member

    Well, you can't leave a group and be affiliated with them at the same time even UN-officially. That was my point. The ITF HQ Korea group seems to me to be acting in ways which make it confusing to people as to whether or not they are actually the ITF. They are not.

    I don't know what master or new group you're referring to so I can't say anything about


    Well, it seems to me that you're talking about people who have already left the ITF so that may actually give you some indication as to why they left in the first place.

    I apologize if I've misunderstood what you're saying but from what I gather it's that the people who have left the ITF are the ones that are now acting like a McDojo. If that's the case it wouldn't reflect poorly on the ITF but rather on new group they've formed.



    Oh, I agree with you and have heard GM Choi say as much. Maybe someone who posts here will attend GM Lim's seminar and let us know what was covered.



    OK, now I am confused. I thought the group you received your invitation from had left the ITF. Is that not the case? Or are they still ITF members? If they've left then they can't really have a "strong relationship" with the ITF, IMNSHO.

    Mind if I ask who sent you the invitation?

    Pax,

    Chris

    Group I am talking about lefted ITF (they left Cjh federation to be accurate), yes. In that way they are ITF no more. But we are not talking about novice I. or II. dan grades, but about some of the most valued members and masters from ITF, who for many was ITF itself (me example). Infact I think those were the last generation of grandmasters who were loyal to Choi Jung Hwa. It wouldn't be even weird, their separating from federation, since Cjh in past time made some really weird decisions, I personally also left the federation but nobody cares about it ofc :) - but what weird is or what disturbed me that those masters now act as big mc dojo (and they left from Cjh from less or more similar reasons, but it is important to say that Cjh in past times was under influence).

    Word is about Korea HQ federation, in which I really had trust because best European and other masters, as I said, created it, but it really disapointed me to see so many mcdojoish adverts from them, including advert for this seminar.

    I want to say, that despite this adverts, I hold Korea HQ maybe, how to say, more ITF then anything else, because people leading it are truly great masters, and because they started federation with idea and wish to unite all of the ITF and make some wishes of Gen. Choi come true.

    That is why I am really confused with their adverts and with so many ways of certification, so many cards, belts, ITF rings, lifetime memberships and other mc dojo red signs.

    I hope it is easier to understand now, I know my english is messed pretty much.
     
  7. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Valued Member

    No, I get you know, I think. Part of the problem is it's very common to refer to "the ITF" when people mean Taekwon-Do as it was designed by Gen. Choi. I do this often, too.

    In reality there is a distinction between the ITF and the style it teaches. It doesn't matter what degree anyone is, as far as being "ITF" or not. It has to do with being a member of the ITF. I know Master Kruk, Mastre Kang, and Master Sanders are now affiliated with ITF HQ Korea. I would obviously say they are Taekwon-Doin but I would not say they are "ITF" anymore since they're no longer members of the ITF (and ITF HQ Korea isn't either, despite its name, IMNSHO). They might well disagree with me but I have no idea how the organization in question can qualify as the headquarters of any ITF, particularly the one headed by GM Choi, Jung Hwa.

    If the people who founded ITF HQ Korea really do want to unite everyone I don't know how founding yet another organization is going to help with that. What they have done is, in effect, create yet another seperate group. That's not unity so much as more schism, especially if they're trying to get other people to join their group instead of actually working at getting the other groups to unite with each other.

    YMMV, but that's my take on things.

    Pax,

    Chris
     
  8. Passenger32

    Passenger32 Valued Member

    They are truly Taekwondoins, if you know them you know that. That is why I give significance to their separation and creating new group. Their qualification as HQ confused many, and their acting of mcdojo confuses even more.

    Yes it is kind of a paradox, that they want to help unite by creating one more group. But it is even bigger paradox that they pretty much act as mc dojo, despite mastery they hold. Master Sanders and master Kang are two people and masters really worth respect and knowing them, mcdojoish is even more suprising to me.

    I hope they will do good and earn respect as serious group because, at least for me, they may be the last group worth of being memeber in and truly support them.

    Cjh is loosing so many masters from his group which is sad. I believe it is because he is under influence of one really arrogant gentleman from England. I saw enough from that man in past 2 years, that I totally support anybody who leaves ITF because of him, and so did I.
     
  9. marinevet63031

    marinevet63031 Hapkido/Koryo Gumdo/TKD

    Thomas, you said.
    Yeah - doesn't mater much to me. I see way too many posts and articles with fighting between the various ITF factions to even want to get involved. I laugh so hard when magazines like Taekwondo Times go on an on about wanting to unify the WTF and ITF - I don't think they realize how splintered the organizations are. Now, that's not to say that the art is necessarily splintered - I love training with any TKDist who wants to suit up, ITF/WTF/ATA/whatever... it's all good. Just leave me out of the politics.

    I couldn't agree more. All the small house imbedded on a rock with long beard an cane just don't fascinate me at all. There is no shooting chi balls from your hands, etc. This is an attitude I find refreshing. The art of Hapkido has also seen its share of nonsense. Same same same. I have worked out with Combat Hapkido, J.R. West Hapkido, and down the road and back again.
    Thing is there are more similarities than differences, so to see someone share the....more available to train the better thought process is great.
     
  10. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Part of the confusion of all this is because for years people have used the incorrect terms. Many call the TKD that General choi developed "ITF Taekwon-Do".. but there isnt really such a thing! ITF is an organisation.. not a style.. the correct term would be 'ch'ang hon TKD'.. so GM Cho and the current ITF's are doing ch'ang hon TKD - the same as everyone else that has come from that line no matter when they went their own way!

    One can say I am doing Ch'ang Hon TKD to the current ITF-(insert letter here) guidelines or to GM Cho's guidelines and its all correct.

    Someone in the ITF can say they are doing ITF TKD - but it is in reference to the org, not the style. If they are refering to their style, then they are incorrect IMO.

    I agree in theory someone cannot/should not claim to be ITF (as in part of the group/s) and it leads to much confusion BUT the term 'ITF TKD' to denote the style has become so common place thats its not seen as wrong either - and that faults is everyone who uses the incorrect terms, which causes all the confusion. Which added to that, is someone who may follow the exncy's exactly, even the same as the current ITF groups (such as the ITF HQ group), which, if saying 'ITF TKD' is and has been a commonly accepted term to denote the style (which most ITF'ers use btw), then they too are not actually wrong... or are they! There is no such thing as ITF style TKD or is there! And if it is indeed 'a style' one does not have to be part of any group to perform it that way!! :bang:

    lol

    Stuart
     
  11. miles

    miles Valued Member

    The gentleman teaching the seminar, GM Lim founded his own style, Hup Kwon Do after breaking away from GM Kwang Jo Choi and Choi Kwang Do. Both GM Choi and GM Lim were ITF instructors.
     
  12. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I'd never even heard the term "Ch'ang hon TKD" before reading Stu's books.
    Certainly not back when I did TKD for the first time.
    Which is a shame as it's a MUCh better term and description than calling it "ITF TKD".
    It is a tangled web of names and influences.
     
  13. michael s. boik

    michael s. boik Valued Member

     
  14. michael s. boik

    michael s. boik Valued Member

    Before the 1980's, the way to move in Taekwon-Do smoothly was to use Knee Spring. Keeping the leg bent at about 30 degrees giving you a slight up and down movement. Later the term SINE WAVE was added to give a more distinct discription of the movement. You can see in the video how the Instructors move from stance to stance dropping their weight into each stance and technique. When you look at Shotokan Kata, they move in a horizontal movement, staying level throughout.

    Regarding the title of this video, none of this was filmed in 1966. I asked Mr. Robert Walson( the man shaking Gen. Choi hand at the beginning) when it was filmed and he said it was filmed in 1970.

    Taekwon!!

    Mike
     
  15. michael s. boik

    michael s. boik Valued Member

    I do not know what happened with the Tour and it's relationship with Pres. Choi but on the outside it looked like a unique learning experience for all Chang Hun practitioners. Also, I believe GM Hwang in involved with this group now.

    Taekwon!!

    Mike
     
  16. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Yup - thanks for the info. I was just teasing a bit. However, during my time in South Korea (about 4 years), I never came across the word "Tul", only poomsae and hyungsae. Not that I visited every place, but I did read a lot, study a lot, and ask quite a few questions. To the best of my knowledge, the term "Tul" wasn't used in the areas I lived (Chungchongnam-do area).
     
  17. michael s. boik

    michael s. boik Valued Member

    Tul, I believe, is an ITF word. I have heard that many of the words used in TKD are not normal Korean terms or words. After Gen. Choi left Korea in 1972, the ITF in South Korea faded away, replaced by the WTF in 1973. I would believe that the WTF would not use ITF terms. JMO

    Taekwon!!

    Mike
     
  18. T Mr.

    T Mr. New Member

    I don’t see why people are upset when it is pointed out that TKD had been influenced by Shotokan Karate? Nothing occurs in a vacuum. Obviously, there is exchange of culture and ideas between neighboring countries. But people are independently thinking……mostly, and change some aspects of form, technique, idea, etc. Also, the first side kick in Won-hyo is done in the opposite direction than in Heian Nidan. Shotokan Krate has a wealth of knowledge and I would be silly not to take advantage of it.
     
  19. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Because in many Korean martial arts schools there's a retro history employed which tries to paint the Korean systems that we see today as an extension of a continuous martial tradition stretching back to the Silla dynasty, as opposed to culturally re-expressed forms of Japanese martial arts.
     
  20. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Valued Member

    This post has strayed a lot from the initial theme about the seminar and the "Secrets" of TKD.
    So, it remains unknow if some sort of supposed "Secret" was truly revealed or whether the seminar simply addressed the elements listed as "Secrets" in General Choi's text.

    It would be interesting to hear from someone who attended.
     

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