Heh, I'd love to see some joint events between the ITF and the Ohdokwan some day. It's a pipe dream, I know, but I find it very interesting that GM Choi has been back to SK several times now. Well, I can dream, I guess. Pax, Chris
See, ironically, you're describing KKW Taekwondo perfectly! Unless you're suggesting people regularly get knocked out in classroom sparring. WHich I doubt. You can see more than a few KO's in ITF sparring if you really want to on youtube. That includes the techniques from Shotokan in patterns, too. That's more evident in the BB patterns than the Taeguks. I never learned the Palgues so I can't say anything about them. People who usually talk about the ITF patterns being straight from Shotokan usually mention Won-Hyo and then are stumped for further examples. One out of 24, go figure! (There are more but I'm not going to help you out! That would be cheating on your part ) Actually, if you watch the whole video tape of "Early Masters" you can see it. It's pretty subtle but it's there. And, in point of fact, if you read the encyclopedia it's supposed to be subtle, not exaggerated. But that is a whole different conversation. Pax, Chris
When I was training in the UKTA/ITF in late 80s/early 90s the sine wave wasn't any more pronounced than it is in that video above, well the 6 minutes I watched...
No harm Chris - that was retribution for you using the old standby of "hands down sparring" (which is much more dangerous in full contact sparring and not always done in every school!). I used a "smilie"! I never played with the black belt ones, but in the color belt ones I came a cross a lot of very similar combinations of moves. Don't ask me to recall them now - it's been quite few years. I hadn't thought about Won-Hyo - I thought that was one of the few patterns clearly created by someone other than General Choi. To me, that's one that is less like Shotokan. I could be wrong though... Ooops, sorry, this gives it away that you are not a "true orthodox original Taekwon (hyphen) Do practitioner". There are two answers to this and neither are "24". I usually go with the original 20 patterns and newer folk go with 25 (with the whole Juche/Kodang debacle). :Angel: Well, that is a different conversation. We learned the whole "rise up a bit and then drive your technique down" concept and were also told to try to keep our bodies from rising and falling too much. I just don't like what seems to be the over exaggerated bounce that some newer practitioners seem to be doing. As far as the encyclopedia goes, I have read the condensed version. I wasn't terribly impressed. I felt it would have been better with photos of the poomsae (instead of just the written description), less photos of the "incorrect way" of doing things, better Hapkido pictures (oops- self defense pictures), and much less "silly stuff" (like some of the defenses against bayonets and the flying double punches against weapons). Otherwise, the history section, the basics, and stuff like that are pretty good.
I don't recall talking about how you WTF guys fight with your hands down all the time recently. Though you certainly do But there's just as much "tippy tappy" sparring in KKW schools as anywhere else, as you know. Well, there are techniques that Gen. Choi obviously stole from karate like ... block/punch. Or even the dreaded kick/punch/punch (that's a good one!). Check out Heian Nidan on youtube. You'll see it's very similar to Won-Hyo. I don't have any reason to think Gen. Choi didn't design Won-Hyo, though. I'd be very interested in hearig your reasoning for thinking he didn't. What do you base that on? I try to keep things simple for you KKW noobs. Like saying the "original 20 patterns." If you were "in the know" you'd realize it was originally 4 patterns. Speaking of "true orthodox original Taesoodo" when are you guys going to tell folks to stop doing the Palgues? Sine wave is, at bottom, a teaching method to help people utilize their mass. When you're small, like Gen. Choi was, it becomes imperative to be able to mobilize as much of your mass as possible in order to increase the amount of force in a technique. What people don't seem to understand, however, is that once you get the idea down you should start to ease up a bit on the big ups and downs. You want a smooth, almost rolling, motion and the angle of the knee shouldn't bend more than 30 degrees (with one notable exception that I can think of). The idea that if a little is good and some is better than a lot must be the best is not accurate. I will say this, though. Don't spend too much time listening to people talk about sine wave online (including me). Most people who critisize it don't hacve the first clue about it and most people who defend it do only a mediocre job of explaining it. While it's a defining characteristic of Taekwon-Do it's one of many and the best way to understand it is to do it and train under someone who actually knows what they're talking about. I still remember some years ago one of my instructors telling me to do one simple thing with my foot that literally made everything fall into place (and I had been doing sine wave for years and had it down pretty good already). Once I made the correction she mentioned my body began moving in a slightly downward, upward, then dropping motion quite naturally. Big increase in both force of technique and acceleration of body as a result. We don't actually do poomsae so including them would've definitely not have been an improvement The condensed encyclopedia tries to condense the information from a 15 volume series of books into a "handy" single volume. I personally prefer the ho sin sul techniques that were taught in the older 1972 book and generally use more of them than those found in the encyclopedia (though there are many good ones there, too). I don't think a lot of people get what flying techniques are for so I won't comment further on that. Speaking as someone who has spent a lot of time teaching I really wish more people would pay attention to the pictures that show how not to do things. If they did many of the internet debates on how to do things would simply not have to take place. I've been to more than one seminar where who groups of people execute certain techniques exactly how the book says not to, for instance. What is that about? Pax, Chris
see post#17 Regardless, my response was meant to be light-hearted, so please don't read more into it. That topic has been done over and over and I have no buy-in to rehash it. I doubt if you do. Yes, some of my favorites right there... I though I had read that it was created by Kim Bok Man I looked through some old posts here and found a great list of created what...not sure how accurate, but it reads pretty well (and attributes the pattern to Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim) http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90799 Heh heh heh. Actually I've been fighting this one yet again. At one point our school did the (20) Chang Hon patterns, then they added the Pal-Gyes (and renamed the first 8 Chang-hon patterns), and then when the Tae-geuks replaced the Pal-Gyes, the Pal-Gyes were moved to the black belt ranks (I think 1-4 at 1st dan and 5-8 at 2nd). After a while, they were basically dropped (since we have plenty of patterns). Recently some of the instructors at the school have talked about bringing them back for the senior ranks to work on. I don't want them back and my argument was that they really don't offer anything "new" that isn't in the Chang Hon or Taegeuk patterns and that we could use that time for other things (like self defense). So far, my rationale is prevailing. Oh right, you use the communist Korean word "Tul" instead of "Poomsae" or "Hyung sae". Sorry,my brainwashed Cold War era mentality prohibits me from using "Tul"... Good point. My criticism was from reading through the book and seeing so many pictures of the "wrong execution" - I looked at it as a waste of space that could have been used for more "correct images" in the condensed version The one I read was "Taekwon-Do (The Korean Art of Self Defence)" by Gen. Choi Hong Hi (International Taekwon-Do Federation: 1991), second edition, printed in USSR. (1st edition dated 1988)
its not...as that was the 'original' sine-wave. :evil: Stuart Ps. Kim, Bok Man helped Gen Choi formulate 15 of the Ch'ang hon patterns, along with Woo, Jae Lim, one of which was Won-Hyo.
Of the Kup patterns Chon-Ji, Dan-Gun, Do-San, Won-Hyo, Yul-Gok, Joong-Gun, Toi-Gye, Hwa-Rang and Choong-Moo ALL have combinations from Shotokan Katas.. even Saju -Jirugi is based around Taikyoku kata! I agree though, Won-Hyo is the clearest example due to the photo's of Funakoshi doing the first 3 moves that are widly circulated. Stuart
ITF patterns and karate kata share so many moves I found it tricky going from one to the other because there are so many "landmarks" in common. There's is absolutely no way Won Hyo (or any other patterns) were created independently of the heian/pinan katas. Even the basic form of 90 degree turns, 45 degree turns and embusen (pattern diagram) is copied even if the techniques differ. Karate is the DNA of Taekwon do whether people like it or not.
I think more accurately people say that ITF patterns draw much from Karate kata and if you want a clear example just compare Won Hyo to Heian Nidan/Pinan Shodan because it is most evident there.
Oh, I didn't think you meant it as a negative. I just couldn't remember saying that in this thread. One too many head shots from keeping my hands down I guess. I kid! Speaking of techniques in patterns, I find it more interesting that at least two of the KKW black belt tul (heh, see what I did there?) contain techniques obviously lifted from kung-fu. Every one of those entries should have "Gen. Choi" listed first, IMNSHO. Basically, the tul were developed by Gen. Choi and he would work through them with the other instructors listed. Gen. Choi came up with the idea, had the final word, and used the other people for input. I can't recall if it was GM Lee, Yu-Sun or GM Kim, Yong-Soo who said that Gen. Choi would come in with the tul written down after having plotted it out and then use the masters to see how it looked. If there was a problem he'd ask for their opinion. This isn't to minimize the input of the men Gen. Choi had working for him at the time, they made very valuable contributions. This is odd. Why would they do that? And what did they rename them to? I've seen people make changes to the tul - some pretty radical, in fact, to the point where it was difficult to recognize them - but I haven't heard of people renaming them before (except the ICTF which renamed Ju-Che for a while to "Chang Hon," and ITF-C which now calls it Ko-Dang). I'm always amazed at people who can manage to collect tons of patterns. I'm lucky to keep a handle on Chon-Ji through Se-Jong and most of the time my performance of them needs work. Out of curiosity, do you guys perform them Taegueks any differently than the Chang Hun tul? I mean, do you perfom each set with the characteristic body mechanics of the KKW and the ITF, or do you just do, essentially, them all the same? I've met lots of people who say they do "both" ITF and WTF Taekwon-Do but when it comes right down to it they only do both pattern sets but with no difference in execution. That's OK, I still remember the first time I heard the word poomse pronounced. I still laugh when I hear it. Ask someone to perform a bending ready stance A sometime and see if they do it correctly. Sigh. You bought the book, people, why not read it? Pax, Chris
Officialy maybe not. But I received invitation to this seminar by master who was beside General and his son for a really long time and was part of Cjh federation. Five months ago he departed and created new federation, and some most respected European ITF masters then also leaved Cjh federation, which I hold only true one, and joined. Here and then I receive loussy mc dojo invitation to seminar or tournament from them. I thought GM Lim wasn't in bond with them, but now again I received invitation letter to seminar from that new federation which means they are at least in very good relationship. It seems to me that people at least I holded the best, actually ITF itself, are becoming large mc dojo. Hope I am wrong. While they were assisting Cjh on seminars they speaked differently about some really important things about ITF etiquette then they speak now which also can count for some questions in. That being said, you can talk about Gen. Choi's "secrets" if by that you mean his Training Secret listed in the Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do. Whether that is what GM Lim means or not remains to be seen. What I was trying to say, there was no secrets about ITF. While General and his son teached people, they teached the core, the most important things. There was no secrets told to choosen few. And by looking in advertisement on the site one could assume, at least I did, that things may change now (and assuming what people could stay behind this seminar, that should be disturbing). It is an interesting question since he has founded what he calls "Advanced Taekwon-Do" which is, according to his website, "built on the foundation lid down by the late Gen. Choi Hong Hi." So whether GM Lim teaches Taekwon-Do or Advanced Taekwon-Do at the seminar is also a good question. Yes I agree. I am sure GM Lim is a very skilled martial artist in his own right. As many know, indded very skilled. I will say, however, that this isn't the first time I've seen the group in question publisize things that leave some question as to what their relationship to the ITF actually is. Group from which I received invitation to the seminar has strong relationships to the ITF and it no doubt at all. Caveat emptor. Pax, Chris
Well, you can't leave a group and be affiliated with them at the same time even UN-officially. That was my point. The ITF HQ Korea group seems to me to be acting in ways which make it confusing to people as to whether or not they are actually the ITF. They are not. I don't know what master or new group you're referring to so I can't say anything about them. Well, it seems to me that you're talking about people who have already left the ITF so that may actually give you some indication as to why they left in the first place. I apologize if I've misunderstood what you're saying but from what I gather it's that the people who have left the ITF are the ones that are now acting like a McDojo. If that's the case it wouldn't reflect poorly on the ITF but rather on new group they've formed. Oh, I agree with you and have heard GM Choi say as much. Maybe someone who posts here will attend GM Lim's seminar and let us know what was covered. OK, now I am confused. I thought the group you received your invitation from had left the ITF. Is that not the case? Or are they still ITF members? If they've left then they can't really have a "strong relationship" with the ITF, IMNSHO. Mind if I ask who sent you the invitation? Pax, Chris
Our original GM is GM Sam Kim (http://masterkims.com/Founder.htm) - when he started teaching in our area, he was already a "WTF" Taekwondo affiliate. The instructors under him (including mine) never asked a lot history questions and took what was being taught "as gospel". I presume that he was told to switch to the Pal-Gye forms and he did so (and later to the Tae-geuks), but he obviously wanted to keep his heritage as well. I am presuming that it would have been frowned upon to keep the ITF names, so he re-named the first eight Ki-bon 1-8 jang (after that, they kept their original names)and put two at each belt level (yellow, green, blue, and red) along with 4 direction strike at white belt. At each color level, there was a Taegeuk form (1,3,5,7 jang) and Taegeuk 2,4,6,8 jang were picked up at 1st and 2nd dan. At each dan level, they added one Chang-hon pattern (with its proper name) and a WTF black belt pattern. So, for a 1st dan (with KKW certification), in addition to the other test components, we would do Cheon-ji through Hwarang plus Taegeuk 1,3,5,7. That's how it was when I started. When I went to Korea, I was a senior red belt and knew all 8 Ki-bon forms and Taegeuk 1,3,5,7. As I trained in TKD there, no one ever recognized the ki-bon forms as Chang Hon patterns (at least no one said anything). I learned the other 4 Taegeuks, Pal-gye 1-4 and then the first 4 WTF Black Belt Patterns. By the time I had come home, our school had left GM Sam Kim and we were doing our own thing, under the ITA (still with KKW certification). I pushed to have the 8 Taegeuks as our color belt patterns along with the Chang Hon forms (which I found out their names from good people at MAP). We're still playing a bit with the order but we want the 8 Taegeuks and at least 4 Chang Hon for 1st dan and have students pick up the other 4 Chang Hon forms at 1st and 2nd dan... as well as another 1 or 2 Chang Hon and WTF BB forms at each level. Ugggh - I like patterns but sometimes there are just too many! The problem is that I see great things in both the WTF and the Chang Hon patterns and can't bring myself to drop either. Pal-gye patterns didn't have enough "different" for me to keep them and I no longer practice them. Currently, as a 5th dan (ITA)/4th dan KKW, I am responsible for knowing 4-direction strike, Taegeuk 1-8 jang, Cheon Ji, Dan Goon, Do San, Won Hyo, Yool Gok, Joong Gun, Toi Gye, Hwa Rang, Koryo, Choong Moo, Kum Gang, Kwang Gae, Tae Baek, Po Eun, Pyong Won, Ge Baek, and I am working on Ship Jin. (Bet that makes some heads spin!) One problem we had was that every instructor seemed to have his/her own way of doing patterns so when we split off, we decided to go with a reference that did them as close to the way as we do. That turned out to be GM Hee Il Cho (and his pattern order matches ours pretty well). So, for example, we do Hwarang about like this (1st half is slow speed and 2nd half is normal speed in the video below) As far as WTF patterns, for a while, we did the WTF patterns close to how I learned them in Korea but lately we've been switching over the the most recent "standardized" way. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcUujwllSAs"]Grand Master Hee Il Cho: Hwa Rang - YouTube[/ame]
This is interesting. When I trained at a KKW school in college the instructor, who was a KKW 7th dan at the time and a Korean national, taught the Chang Hun patterns quite openly (in additon to the Taeguks - which I never really liked, I have to admit). We saw other KKW schools do them (ITF patterns) at tournaments sometimes, too. Yes, the Chang Hun tul aren't widely practiced in SK, that's for sure. They're not non-existent, but are hard to find. I know a few Oh Do Kwan schools teach them, as well as the newer ITF schools. Interestingly, I have been told by a pretty high ranking KKW black belt that when Kim, Un-Yong ran things a Korean could test at the KKW for a high dan test (8th or 9th dan) and do any pattern set for the test. This wasn't allowed for non-Koreans, though. Well, from Chon-Ji to Se-Jong (including two versions of Ko-Dang, the old one and the new one) I have 24 patterns to do. Add to that three fundamental exercises (Saju Jirugi, Saju Makgi, and Saju Tulgi). So I actually have one more than you do. But I only need to learn one more and then I'm done I know people who "know" 24 ITF patterns and 25 KKW patterns. That just seems like a lot to me. Wow, yeah. That's an old version. And his preparation for the twin forearm block at the beginning was one of Gen. Choi's many example of an incorrect way of performing a technique since at least around 1972. See, if he had only read the book he'd have known that I do find it interesting that you're trying to update the KKW patterns but not the ITF ones, though. Pax, Chris
Like I said, I don't know the reasoning. My guess is that when GM Kim came here in the 70s, he was told to get with the program and do the Pal-Gyes (which he did, and then did the Taegeuks). Keeping the first 8 Chang Hon patterns with different names could have been a political choice or maybe even a way to make the names more uniform (with Pal Gye 1-8 jang, Tae Geuk 1-8 jang, a "Ki Bon" 1-8 jang would fit right in). I don't know. For us, we like having them because it ties us back to our roots with GM Kim. When I was there (1997-2001), I didn't see them and no one that I showed them to recognized them as such. Granted, I didn't share them around that much - I was too busy learning other stuff! Yes, I do think I have a lot of patterns (8 Tae Geuks + 12 Chang Hon + 5 KKW BB patterns + 4 direction strike = 26 patterns to work on). I learned the first 4 Pal Gye but no longer practice them. I like doing them and I think they are a great way of training when you have no partner. At the same time, one has to balance the value of them during training time (class time) vs other ways of training. When we had a school that ran 5 days a week, with 4 hours of class time available daily, I think it's reasonable to use more time for pattern development. With less time (we only have 2 nights a week now with 90 minutes each day), I would prefer to cut back on pattern time and spend more on self defense, sparring, etc. We chose to go with GM Hee Il Cho because he does them the closest to way we learned them originally (and he uses the same order that we did). I also LOVE the sheer power and intensity he puts into every form. His books and videos are very clear references for us to use. And, since we don't claim to be an ITF school and don't hold any rank under the ITF, we don't see a need to change to a different way than how we've learned. When I look at the speed and power GM Hee Il Cho generates, I have to confess that I haven't seen any other Chang Hon video demonstrations with better form/power (feel free to share... just remember that I don't care for the exaggerated bouncy-bouncy ones!) As for updating the WTF ones, I don't really care to update them personally. In fact, I have a few philosophical issues with some of the changes (long story short - the tendency in my opinion is to water them down and make them easier.) The other instructors have pushed to do so because they want our students to be "ready to compete" in modern events. I like the older way, but can see the competition argument. Since I am an instructor, I will get on board and do them the same way as everyone else in the school.
Ideally, IMO, training time should be split evenly between fundamental exercises, patterns, sparring (pre-arranged and free), self-defense, and forging. Regarding the bolded statement, I had to go back and rewatch the video you posted a couple of times. I am reticent to say this but since you mention GM Cho's speed and power as something that impresses you I have to say that I don't see his demonstration of this pattern as being particularly good examples of either speed or power. This is particularly true of his kicks. Please note, I am sure GM Cho is a great martial artist and I know he has had many accomplishments. I simply don't see the video that is posted as a good example of speed or power. And that is an example of the problems with videos posted on the internet. I have found that often times because of camera angle, distance, etc. it can alter the appearance of the performance. YMMV. That being said, if you want to see ITF practioners demonstrate a lot of speed and power I'd suggest training with people like Master Parm Rai (who is an absolute animal), Master Robert Wheatley (who is extremely powerful), Master Trevor Nichols, and Grand Master Choi, Jung Hwa. Pak, Chong Hyon is pretty phenomenal, too. As for videos, meh, I've largely been unimpressed with what youtube has to offer. There are a few that are adequate examples. Master Nicholls crushing 10 boards: https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=102206519794873&oid=132384238028 Joel Denis doing Moon-Moo: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FauV5oQ2yuM"]Moon Moo - YouTube[/ame] Aristedes Palopoli: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWji-75PSuU"]ArÃstides Palópoli (APAT) camino a Corea del Sur 2010 - YouTube[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLjy6HE_55k"]Aristides Palopoli - YouTube[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_psOzRygoYw"]Aristides Palopoli - YouTube[/ame] [qute]As for updating the WTF ones, I don't really care to update them personally. In fact, I have a few philosophical issues with some of the changes (long story short - the tendency in my opinion is to water them down and make them easier.) The other instructors have pushed to do so because they want our students to be "ready to compete" in modern events. I like the older way, but can see the competition argument. Since I am an instructor, I will get on board and do them the same way as everyone else in the school.[/QUOTE] Interesting. I left your quote about not being an ITF school so you weren't interested in updating the tul above because IIRC you do get KKW rank but you're also not interested in updating your poomsae. People can do whatever they want, of course, but I've always figured if I was going to do the patterns Gen. Choi designed I'd try to do them like he wanted. Please note, I don't really care what other people do or don't do in their schools, that's just my opinion. If I decided to do Taekwon-Do differently or make changes in the patterns myself I don't think I'd be doing "Taekwon-Do" so much as some "style" of Taekwon-Do. Pax, Chris
Yes, I agree. When class time is at a premium, I'd rather split my time up more than focus just on forms. As a school that offers KKW rank, we could eliminate the Chang Hon forms and open up more time that way. However, I see value in both sets of forms so we need to find a compromise in time to allow us to do the forms as well as work on other skills. We'll have to agree to disagree here. I like the way GM Cho does things and I can see a great deal of power, focus and speed when he does patterns. I also like his transitions from piece to piece. I've seen his "breaking skills" as well and am impressed with his power and precision. I don't plan on getting into a "my master is better than you master" argument thing - I don't have any ties to GM Cho more than using his books/videos as a reference. I looked at the videos you posted though and would offer some feedback from my point of view. Yep, we have to agree to disagree. He has great form and control but his transitions seem slow and disconnected. The little 'hip bump/wiggle' thing he does before each combination seems to break the transition and continuity of the pattern. My eyes just don't see his technique being as "powerful" as GM Cho's. (Hopefully we never judge patterns together!) He stretches well and spars pretty well. I didn't see anything impressive as far as patterns in here. Is this supposed to be 'full-contact'? I see him hitting the other guy a lot but only a few of the shots seem to register and do damage/knock down. Apples to apples (Hwarang) - again I will have to agree to disagree. This guy is good, but I think GM Cho's transitions and power seem stronger. I'd rather get hit by this guy than by GM Cho. On the last pattern form, there's a couple things I don't like either - there's something wrong with his punching hand - it's crooked or not quite straight on or something (watch when he does a straight punch). Aslo when he throws a punch, he brings his punching hand into the chamber and then drops it down part way down his thigh and sort of circles it forward instead of pushing with his hip and body. You know, that comes off a bit judgemental and/or condescending. Must be that tone doesn't carry well in text? I do my patterns the way I have been taught and the way my instructors do them. I am not a student of General Choi and definitely wouldn't update what I've learned just to be in line with changes that occurred after my GM left that organization, just like I wouldn't change my political views to General Choi's the way he did after leaving South Korea. Good for you and thanks for sharing. I study "Taekwondo" and that's enough for me.
Yes, we will. GM Cho is very good at breaking. His performance of the Chang Hun tul isn't very good, however. I am also surprised you mention his transitions as I thought they weren't very good. I don't see much power in his pattern or much speed (whether you mean speed qua speed or speed as acceleration). That wasn't my intent, but since you brought up GM Cho as an example of speed and power I thought it wouldn't be too bad if I pointed out the example of him that you posted wasn't that good. Maybe there are other videos of him that are better. This is odd since I'm not sure what "hip bump/wiggle" means. Unless it's the initial drop of the body weight before you rise and then sink. I do have to sy, though, that he's easily as powerful in that pattern as GM Cho. No, not full contact. LOL So much for you not being interested in a "my master is better than yours" thing. You're silly. GM Cho does have good punching strength on the l-Stance punches, but the rest are not overly impressive. (He also throws his shoulder when punching, which is odd.) I reviewed the pattern again and I think you're incorrect about his punching hand. I didn't notice it being bent at all on the punches (it was slightly bent on the back-fist front strikes, however). As for your comment about him dropping his hand "part way down his thigh," I'd be very interested in a time stamp of when you see that because after an additional two views it's not in there. The only time his hand travels below his belt are when he does the scooping block and the pressing blocks, and that is supposed to occur (even in non-updated ITF patterns ). The circular motion on a punch is normal coming out of the chamber. But there's no dropping of the hand itself in the video. Given your list of critiques from the videos I posted did you want me to list the errors in the video you posted? It would be quite lengthy but I could do so if you're interested. Most likely it's you inferring things I'm not implying. Like I said, people can do whatever they want. Now you're just getting upset because you think I said something I didn't. I don't care if you do your patterns how the ITF wants, how the KKW wants, or how anyone but you wants. You posted an example of a video that impressed you and I disagreed that it was impressive. My comments about me doing my patterns how Gen. Choi wanted them done is just that, a comment about me. Your statement about being judgemental and condescending applies more to you than to me given your reaction. The difference is, I don't care. Gen. Choi designed the patterns and I do them as close to how he wanted them done as I can. If I did KKW Taekwondo I'd probably try to do those patterns like they want them done. If I didn't have this attitude I wouldn't bother getting certified by either the ITF or the KKW (if I did KKW Taekwondo) because I wouldn't be doing the system that those organizations promulgate. Your comment about Gen. Choi's political views is a bit unclear and I am unsure if it's supposed to refer to Gen. Choi or other people. Either way, however, it's not really relevant to anything we're discussing (or anyone I've ever met in the ITF). I'd also hazard to say his political views changed very little, if at all, after he left Korea. I really get the feeling you don't know much about him at all. You obviously have a different attutude and you're welcome to it. Because, again, I don't care Pax, Chris
