http://www.taekwondoseminar.eu/ Training in cool secret places...revealing secrets..what is beautiful and effective art of ITF becoming? When best masters and people who just before few months were close to Choi Jung Hwa, and was close to GM Choi are selling ITF this way, it is time to ask.. There are no secrets in ITF nor GM Choi had some secrets. Money is destroying everything.
I don't know - sounds more like creative salesmanship to get people to a seminar. In this day and age, there really aren't too many secrets out there. Maybe they are going to reveal that Taekwondo has no relation to Taek Kyeon and that it comes from Shotokan Karate... or maybe that it's not really a 2,000 year old art. I wouldn't worry about it. What do you see as being the main problem with it?
For a red belt 50 Euros for 2 days training with a GM seems good value. Is it the selling of never before revealed secrets of TKD?
Choi Jung Hwa and his father didn't hold any secrets when teaching Taekwondo. Masters behind this seminar (which I also trained with through seminars) didn't know nothing about any secrets while they were close to GM Choi or his son. Now when they are departed suddenly there are some secrets. And all this in exotic location you have never been before. It looks like marketing and salesmanship, and that is what bothers me, because in one serious art and organisation there is no place for that kind of moves, which is rather to except from some Mcdojo organisation. This is specially significant because group behind this seminar and behind not so long ago launched "Tul Tour ITF" is consisted of most respected masters, which were with GM Choi and Choi Jung Hwa since always and from which you would never expect top secrets training. Obviously times are changing. At least they still hold reasonable price.
Funny that James Lim is the one running the show. Not to say that he isn't a great martial artist, which he is, but I hear from my instructor that he has a history of taking advantage of people in mean ways, though nothing illegal. When one of my instructors was training under Choi in what I believe was the late 80s, he was a much lower rank than Lim, who would make all the lower ranked dans serve on him during all their get-togethers, making all these guys run around at every whim all night, and then at the end pretend to be friendly so he didn't look like a jerk in front of his peers. Not that he won't teach cool stuff, as I'm sure he will. But this little marketing scheme to take advantage of people puts his own martial art down and its a shame.
Please note, the "ITF" group that is hosting this event is not affiliated with the ITF under Grand Master Choi, Jung Hwa. Nor is Grand Master Lim a member of the ITF under Grand Master Choi. That being said, you can talk about Gen. Choi's "secrets" if by that you mean his Training Secret listed in the Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do. Whether that is what GM Lim means or not remains to be seen. It is an interesting question since he has founded what he calls "Advanced Taekwon-Do" which is, according to his website, "built on the foundation lid down by the late Gen. Choi Hong Hi." So whether GM Lim teaches Taekwon-Do or Advanced Taekwon-Do at the seminar is also a good question. I am sure GM Lim is a very skilled martial artist in his own right. I will say, however, that this isn't the first time I've seen the group in question publisize things that leave some question as to what their relationship to the ITF actually is. Caveat emptor. Pax, Chris
1- Good point about the 9 parts of the training secret of TKD. They are not meant to be a secret, they are listed right out there & are the SECRET to learning TKD efficiently! 2- Yes & would add that this group is not affiliated with any ITF group. 3- Some of the people involved have been associated & or affiliated with GM Choi's ITF(C) in the past. The group in SK had some sort of falling out with the ITF-C & is no longer affiliated with them. (Would you care to comment on that or send a PM?) I was hoping that President Choi's outreach efforts in SK would bear some very sweet fruit. Sadly that seems to have been derailed, at least for now. I continue to hope that he can make further inroads in SK, as I think it is critical for the future viability of ITF TKD.
I believe GM Lim actually received a IX dan from ITF-NK (though he is not listed on their web site, currently). At a later date he seemed to join the ITF under GM Choi but was given an VIII dan (there are only two IX dans in ITF-C). I've been told a few things by someone who has had dealings with members of the ITF HQ Korea and let us just say that it seems to me there was a bit of concern on the part of GM Choi that this group was taking monetary advantage of some people in two seperate areas. People were very critical publically when GM Choi stated they were no longer affiliated with the ITF but I think that's because he didn't get into the full reasons why and rests on a partial picture of things at best. I also think it was too bad many people decided to air grievances about perceived unfairness on GM Choi's part publically. I found that disrespectful (and I was as shocked as anyone else when it happened!). I am not suggesting people follow and never ask questions, but I do think a nnit of propriety goes a long way. I have a lot of respect for GM Choi as a martial artist and found some comments by people on the internet to be unfortunate. The ITF seems to still be doing fairly well in SK. Master Lee, Jong Mok - who has been with the ITF since Gen. Choi was alive - has been involved with the ITF movement in Korea for sometime now. Since before the split with this group. He was head of a Member Organization (M.O.) while ITF-Korea was the Independent National Organization (INO). His group is now the INO and, from what I have heard, had about 70-80% of the ITF members in SK before ITF HQ Korea split. I know they're having a referee/umpire course in Kwangju March 16-17. Please note, I base what I've posted not on first hand experience with the situation but on what someone who was involved much closer than I has told me. Anything that isn't accurate, however, is my responsibility alone and the result of faulty memory or lack of understanding on my part. Pax, Chris
I took a look at his website (http://www.advanced-taekwondo.com/menu.html) - from a cursory look, he sure is flashing various ITF symbols and such. Who is he associated with? (Forgive me for not keeping up on the various splinter groups and which one(s) are supposedly the true one(s).... ) One thing that made me chuckle a bit was that the site mentions how they are creating a highly effective combat system and such, but when I look at the videos of the GM online, it's just some forms and board breaking and routine sparring. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TEa93nk9m0"]Grand Master James Lim 1.mpg - YouTube[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sc7_t5lo4k"]Grand Master James Lim 3.mpg - YouTube[/ame]
No he was a 9th Dan already & was flirting with different orgs. But I don't think the ITF-NK gave him a 9th, they may have offered him an 8th, but I do not think he took it. I falsely assumed he had a 9th from the ITF-C, thanks for clearing that up & thank you for sharing the other info. I do agree that there is way too much negativity on the web. It is also especially unbecoming of TKDin, who ignore the Tenets of TKD! I now just noticed he has on his website that he was promoted to 8th Dan by the ITF in 1996 & 9th Dan in 2003. I wonder which ITF & also didn't know he was back with the ITF when Gen. Choi was still alive (meaning the 1996 date)
The real ITF is the ITF that any individual feels to meet their desires of what an org can bring them. The ITF-NK & the ITF-V have been engaged in a series of court battles in Vienna Austria, home of the ITF HQs since 1985. Some earlier decisions went back & forth between the 2 groups. But now the ITF-NK has been ruled the legal or real ITF according to the issues raised in those specific court cases. This has resulted in the ITF-V having to pay legal fees & court charges amounting to over 110,000 Euros to the Chang Ung ITF. The ITF-NK also maintained exclusive & continued control of the ITF HQs building since the passing of Gen. Choi in 2002 & the start of all the legal disputes. These 2 ITFs are working on finalizing agreements between the 2 groups. An issue that still remains to be settled in the use of the ITF name, as it is the Chang Ung group that can use the name. I am not sure if people noticed the ITF-V added a new modern looking logo recently. I imagine that this is part of the process. Getting back to GM Ching Sing Lim, he is an independent, that broke away from the ITF years ago. He went with an original teacher of his, GM Choi Kwang Jo, who taught him in Malaysia. He then created his own MA & eventually made his way back to TKD. It now appears he has some connection to the ITF independent group in SK, that was previously affiliated with the ITF-C. GM Lim also worked with the ITFC & ITF-NK as well. He is smart to keep connections with many people imnsho. Also those videos brought back memories of the old days! Thanks
None of the ITF's, as far as I am aware. He might be affiliated with "ITF HQ Korea" (which is itself not affiliated with any of the ITF's) but I don't know. GM Lim was a member of the ITF under Gen. Choi then left to join ChoiKwang-Do under GM Choi, Kwang Jo. He was a member of that for a few years and then left to found his own style which I have seen referred to variously as "HupKwon-Do" or "Advanced Taekwon-Do." I'm not sure if they are the same thing with a name change or different styles. Lots of groups now use the ITF logo even if they don't belong to one of the ITF splinters. Pax, Chris
Oh, yes. I was quite surprised when I read that GM Lim had received an VIII dan from ITF-C specifically because I had already seen reports of him at ITF-NK events where he was referred to as a IX dan. Maybe that's why I thought he got his IX dan from them. We're all imperfect and fallible. I just try not to demonstrate that fact whenever I post something online. It's not easy... Hmmm. Interesting. Pax, Chris
Yes they do! And many mistake what an ITFer is. To me it is someone who wears an official ITF DoBok, trains under a certified ITF International Instructor at an ITF authorized dojang, issues an ITF BB cert, competes in ITF tournaments under current ITF rules & the 4-5 official ITF tournament categories, incorporates SW into the Tuls & fundamental movements in isolation, & follows the 15 Volume Encyclopedia of TKD, etc. There are many that are independent & doing an older or different version of Chang Hon or ITF style TKD, often depending on when their connection to Gen. Choi left him or the ITF. This is similar to those schools that hang a WTF or KKW Flag in their school, wear a V-Neck dobok & think they are a WTFer or Kukki TKDin, when they do not have the KKW textbook, have a WTF membership ID, do not get KKW BB certs, attend the WTF or KKW courses, have a KKW certified instructor at a registered KKW KOMS school or are even aware of the standardization that the Poomsae have long required as determined & or set by the KKW.
Yeah - doesn't mater much to me. I see way too many posts and articles with fighting between the various ITF factions to even want to get involved. I laugh so hard when magazines like Taekwondo Times go on an on about wanting to unify the WTF and ITF - I don't think they realize how splintered the organizations are. Now, that's not to say that the art is necessarily splintered - I love training with any TKDist who wants to suit up, ITF/WTF/ATA/whatever... it's all good. Just leave me out of the politics. That's not a bad way of looking at it. So if someone whips out an ITF dan certificate from the ITF-NK or A or B or X or whatever, do you see them as all equally valid? We actually fall under this - we started as part of Oh Do Kwan and still do the Chang Hon forms and drills/techniques as our old GM used to (only 20 patterns and no sine-wave). I don't see us as "ITF" though because we switched over to the WTF/KKW and moved in that direction. Well, I will have to hem and haw here a bit in my own defense. We have a WTF flag (somewhere), wear v-necks, have WTF patches on our uniforms, and all hold KKW dan certificates which were earned with the appropriate testing. We don't have KKW ID cards, use the KKW textbook, and haven't completely updated to the 'standardized' versions of the WTF poomsae. I think by following what we've been taught (basics of the system, poomsae, techniques, etc) that we are "Taekwondo" enough... and by holding rank from the KKW, that I can call myself a WTF-style TKDist (and one who's system goes back into the early ITF teachings). Granted, with our background, we still chuckle at people doing the "24" patterns (we have 20) and that 'new-fangled' sine-wave stuff as being a bit of a drift away from the original style...
Yes absolutely. I think all 3 ITFs are the real ITF. All of them are legitimate & who am I to say one is better than the other. To me it is about what the individual thinks is best for them. Collectively, all 3 of the ITFs can make good cases why they are the ITF. So I do not choose, I respect & hope that calmer minds can move them closer together, as that is where they belong IMHO! Ah but I wouldn't classify it as the original style, as the original style was Korean karate. The developmental path away from the karate roots took time & occurred over the passage of long periods of time. So to me the original style of TKD was what was settled upon when their founder passed away in 2002. He was vibrant, creative & always thinking, updating, adding & revising. His ITF TKD was a dynamic & evolving KMA of SD, that was never stagnant when he was alive. Now as far as what you do, I think you are a special hybrid. You seem to be combining good stuff from both sides. That to me is all good. The fact that you can earn KKW BB certs when doing the Chon Ji patterns devised by Gen. Choi, demonstrates both the inclusiveness of the KKW, as it was designed to be, while also illustrating that is lagged somewhat & in some areas with having a more complete global standardization. I also would think, based upon your input that you are indeed TKD & deserving of what you have earned!
See, I'd be much more interested in Ohdokwan certificates than KKW ones. I just don't go in for that "new fangled" KKW stuff (new patterns, hands down fighting, etc. ). Interestingly, sine wave was around for a lot longer than most people realize it just wasn't called sine wave at the time. Pax, Chris
Me too! Yes SW can be traced back to the 1960s in Seoul. It was not called that, nor was it as dramatic as some do it.
I would disagree a bit there (although not in a heated way). The difficulty of trying to label "original" Taekwondo is that there was so much development going on through the formative years. I tend to have a pretty open mind about what "Taekwondo" is, in short it should have patterns (Taegeuk, Chang-hon, Pal-gye, or even Song-ahm) and the basics of the system (the kicks, punches, footwork, etc) and a lineage that takes it back to one of the original lines. There is going to be some differences here and there based on the evolution but they all come from the same roots. That's an interesting way to put it.We just see ourselves as doing "Taekwondo". When my instructors started, it was Oh Doh Kwan style, with long stances, hard strikes + kicks, sparring and Chang Hon patterns (under new names). Soon, the Pal-gye patterns were added along with 'Olympic Style Sparring', then the Tae-geuk forms were added. There are still a lot of drills with the long stances (1,2,and 3 step sparring) and a lot of fighting stance drills (Olympic style). I don't really see it as a hybrid but rather the 'natural evolution' of the system as older masters shifted from the older systems to the WTF style. The basic techniques are not different even though how we employ them and drill them may be. It's still the same art and the same pieces - just being done a bit differently. Ooops - I don't want to be misunderstood. For our testing, we do all of the KKW requirements (patterns) as well as the Chang Hon forms. Technically we don't have to do the Chang Hon patterns for KKW rank, but they are 'school' requirements. (Compared to an ITF school, we would be a bit behind in our patterns for our rank). Our KKW patterns are at the correct levels (although we haven't fully shifted to the standardized changes yet).
Heh heh heh - sometimes I feel the same about some of the ITF stuff. The exaggerated bouncing during patterns seen in some videos, the tippy-tappy sparring where no one gets knocked out, and combinations of poomsae techniques that seem taken directly from Shotokan patterns... I don't know much about the whole sine-wave stuff - I didn't see it when I trained with the Shotokan guys and I don't see it in the "Early Masters of Taekwondo" video. That's why I call it "new fangled"... ALso, we use GM Cho Hee-il for our references for patterns. I love his power and execution (and his order of patterns matches our original system). No sine-wave from him... Some of these clips are on the "Early Master" videos, especially the poomsae ones: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlEd7bwHKh0"]Original ITF Taekwon-Do Inception, 1966 and (Steve Cheah ?) 1972 - YouTube[/ame]
