ITF/Ch'ang Hon - Maybe the rules about contact need to be clarified?

Actually, the vast majority of blocks in Taekwon-Do are strikes. I don't mean in just the "alterate application" sense, but in the attacking the incoming limb sense. There will be a difference of range, but you're just attacking a different part of the other person's body.

Not really. Your arm is the exact same length regardless of the way you stand. Your range is the same. If you're side on (or half facing as we'd say) you have the same range as you would when full facing. But you've closed more of the body's vital points.

That's because, as far as I am aware, Muay Thai is a sport. It's main concern is sparring.

Techniques are being taught in both manners. You said you had trained in ITF Taekwon-Do so I'm a bit confused about your statements since they're quite at odds with my own experiences. Your comment about not punching effectively, your comments about training as it relates to sparring, etc. should be answered for anyone who has had more of a passing familiarity with ITF Taekwon-Do or who has read the Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do.

Pax,

Chris

 

Thats a new one to me, last time I checked there are blocks in ITF and they're taught and applied as defensive techniques. Whether they hurt an opponent or not is an added bonus, but not the primary purpose. The primary purpose of a block is to prevent your opponent from making contact with a vital area - torso, head or thighs.

No, not at all. When you stand side on or angled, you have far more reach in particular with punches such as the jab (lead hand). Try this: Stand square on, in a shoulder length stance and hold out your left arm (if you're right handed, if you're left handed hold out your right hand). Next take a step back with your right leg and stand side on (or angled), again in a shoulder lengthed stance and hold out your left arm. You'll notice difference immediately in range. This is because by standing side on, the positioning of your shoulders will change, your lead shoulder will naturally come forward, thus covering more distance when you throw the jab.

Muay Thai is a martial art and a sport (like Taekwon-do). And its main concern is being effective in fighting (self defense and sparring), as each martial art should be.

I trained in ITF Taekwon-do for a few years before moving on to Muay Thai and Boxing which I what I do now and have been doing so for the last few years. I competed in ITF Taekwon-do sparring under ITFNZ. My ITF Taekwon-do club was probably most likely a bad example of ITF and I am open to that. But based on what I have seen and experienced with training with other ITF Taekwon-do clubs in New Zealand, I'm not convinced about ITF Taekwon-do sparring.

 

This depends on where you're measuring from. You have more reach if you measure from the spine or the head but not if you measure from the body.

 

Well, the it is a new one to you. Of course blocks are defensive but if you spent any amount of time in Taekwon-Do you know that there is a very high level of focus on generating power and, in effect, "attacking" with your blocks. I even heard Grand Master C.E. Sereff say, "There are no blocks in Taekwon-Do." Why? Not because you weren't defending yourself but because you were attacking your opponent's limb. It's a pretty basic concept.

The reach is the same. As stetko pointed out, it depnds on where you measure from. If you can cause your arm to grow that's awesome. The point is, though, that if you're full facing your arm reaches X inches from your shoulder. If you're half facing your arm reaches X inches from your shoulder.

Sparring and self-defense are two different things. That's a pretty basic concept. I have no background in Muay Thai so I don't know if they make a distinction or not, or of you just don't make such a distinction, but a sparring match is simply a different animal than self-defense (and I'm not one of those "If it don't work on the street it's nothin'!" types; it's just a fact.)

What dan rank did you get? How much time did you spend on Ho Sin Sul? What is your understanding of Cycle of Taekwon-Do?

The reason I ask these questions is because if you spent time training in ITF Taekwon-Do and you read the Encyclopedia like you said your statements are, really, very strange. I mean, you know all the different types of sparring i nTaekwon-Do and the reasons why they are practiced and how the are different from Ho Sin Sul, right?

Pax,

Chris

 

You can definitely reach further by standing side on to a person (by a few inchs).
Of course that removes your other side hand and limbs from being employed effectively and makes you very vulnerable to low kicks so it's a not a trade off I'd make for some semi contact based reduction in targets.

 

Small point, but when we do competition based sparring, we (as in my students) stand mostly side on - its less to do with the punches, but the reach and speed of the front leg kicks and presenting less target areas for the opponent to score on.

However, when we do traditional sparring (more akin to a real fight), we are more front on boxing style, as the main aim to to finish quickly and that type of stance allows effective use of both hands in a powerful piston fashion, as well as cover more effectively from knee strikes and the opponents heavier punches etc.

Both are TKD to me

Stuart

 

I trained in ITF for a bit longer than 2 years (I originally stopped Taekwon-do after I was warned by my surgeon not to continue because of my knees). The grade I reached was 7th kup. The organization that I was in was UINZ (although its name has now changed to International Taekwon-do Federation of New Zealand), its president is William Chan (8th dan) whom I did my gradings under alongside with Rua Kaiou (7th dan). Rua Kaiou is featured in the ITF legacy DVD.

 

There are no low kicks in ITF sparring, and you can pivot your back foot to obtain more reach and power on the cross.

 

Aye, thats true. I referring to ITF semi contact sparring which is the most well known.

In my opinion; ITF Taekwon-do should be full contact. With kicks to the legs (shins should be included as a legal striking weapon), knee strikes, circular punches (hooks and uppercuts), elbows, catching kicks, sweeps, standing joint locks and strangle holds as well as clinches and throws. KO's should be allowed at all belt levels. Sinewave as it's practiced today by general ITF practitioners should be ditched as it has no practical application in sparring or self defense. Sparring drills (as well as step sparring) and free sparring should be compulsory at every belt level as a part of the grading curriculum.

The point system could be changed to something of the following (points should be given based on techniques that make contact with a reasonable amount of force):

All effective blocks and parries = 1 point.

All punches (straight and circular punches), elbows, basic kicks (front kick, push kick, turning kick, side kick, back kick) and knees = 2 points.

Throws, sweeps and technical kicks (twist kicks, hook kicks, axe and crescent kicks, reverse turning kicks) = 3 points

If the practitioner who performs the sweep falls over with their opponent, then no points are awarded.

All flying kicks, and successful standing joint locks and strangle holds (after being applied for 3 seconds. After 3 seconds the referee will step in and separate the practitioners. If a tap out occurs within those 3 seconds then it counts as a KO. If a practitioner can successfully escape a joint lock or strangle hold then the points go to them) = 4 points.

If a joint lock or hold goes to the floor, a referee will step in and separate the practitioners, neither practitioner will gain points.

KO = End of match. Winner is automatically declared on the basis of who scored the KO (and whether it was the result of a legal technique) and whether or not a practitioner is able to continue the match.

 

I know. I'm a black belt in ITF TKD (of sorts). I fought side on for years.
Probably right up until that first thigh kick landed on the back of my leg when I started Thai and I started standing more square on.
What I'm saying is that standing side on is an artifact of TKD style sparring. Reduce viable targets and bring viable weapons into play.
Many ITF people drop their front arm to stop side kick getting in.
None of which really crosses over into reality.
Personally I like what I do to need changing as little as possible from one arena to the next.
When I spar TKD I get kicked in the stomach all the time because I stand quite square on.
But If I went back to a more side on stance I'd get leg kicked into next week at Shidokan.
So I stay front on even though my TKD instructor tells me to change.

 

Its always confused me why ITF guys drop their hands, I mean wouldn't it make more sense to keep them up so you don't get kicked or punched in the head?

Changing ITF Taekwon-do over to full contact would most likely change the way how practitioners spar. My guess would be that it could end up looking similar to Kyokushin and Hapkido (perhaps even a blend of the two) considering the techniques that are taught in ITF's curriculum, it doesn't make any sense to me to limit how many of the techniques can be used in sparring.
Based on the way how the fundamentals are taught, ITF appears to be designed for square on, full contact sparring.

By the way, does anyone have any ideas on why ITF generally practices semi contact sparring as opposed to full contact?

 

Not within the confines of ITF competition style sparring no.
A quick front leg side kick to the guts will get you 2 points. It's a very common technique and pretty easy to sneak in under the elbow of a head height guard.
That's gonna need two head punches to negate and three to beat. Not an easy thing to do in a short match (when another sneaky side kick might land again).
As such it pays to drop your front hand down to protect the ribs (like Bill Wallace used to do) and then use the rear hand, footwork, front shoulder and head movement to avoid other things.
Boxers use a similar guard (the philly shell) on occasion (although for different reasons) so it's not even as though dropping the hands is peculiar to TKD when the situation makes it make sense.

 

The same reason everyone else does semi-contact sparring (even ostensibly "full contact" styles).
It's usually safer, less injuries, less soft tissue damage, longevity in training, ability to go to work the next day, greater ability to have different levels sparring at once etc etc

 

Lol, if you want safe then don't do the martial arts at all.
I don't think it would make much a difference with Taekwon-do, people find ways to injure themselves. Flying kicks was a popular one in my dojang (thats how I screwed up my knees).

 

Although in Boxing with the philly shell, the lead shoulder is protecting the jaw (the jaw is tucked behind it on the shoulder roll) and the back hand is always up.





In ITF, I usually see practitioners with both of their hands down, for what reason I don't know. But surely you don't need two hands to parry a kick?

 

The problem with semi contact is you have to trust the other person to also go semi. Thats in competition or sparring. I have found that some people get too excited or are just idiots and dont comply. Id rather see it agreed full contact so its a level playing field or light with no pads, just big gloves.
The lesson for me was treat everything like its full contact in terms of defense.Dont trust the other person to comply.

 

I would argue for marketing reasons so more people will do it and to continue the 'look' and qualities that TKD is know for. If all TKD went full contact,hands too, people would be getting knocked out all over untill they learn't, through fighting, full contact fundamentals and basics and it would look like other full contact styles, as we are all humans and move the same. If a person is about to fight or spar full contact it makes perfect sense to only do high percentage tactics and techniques to be safe.
Basicaly it would look like some form of kickboxing,depending on the rules. That is not what TKD people want to happen.It would kill off their identity.

 

Indeed. Just pointing out that dropping a hand from guarding the head can be useful so long as you know why you are doing it.
Boxers that use the philly shell have their reasons.
Bill Wallace had his.
And ITF guys have theirs. They aren't doing it because they are stupid but because it helps them not lose.

Really? The most common guard I see in ITF is rear hand up and front hand down.
Although given the number of kicks thrown the hands tend to move to facilitate moving the legs and maintaining balance so they rarely maintain any sort of static position really.
Bear in mind I'm not defending sparring that way.
I don't do it that way myself (and get caught with front leg kicks as a result) but can understand why it makes sense in a kick heavy format.