ITF/Ch'ang Hon - Maybe the rules about contact need to be clarified?

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by WastedFox, Oct 20, 2012.

  1. WastedFox

    WastedFox New Member

    We all know ITF is theoretically a 'no-contact', 'light-contact' or 'semi-contact' tournament setting based on how the rules are worded.

    Reality shows us though, that people don't have the godly control over their technique that they can stop within the 2cm of the target as specified. Hell, we end up with accidental knock-outs because we TRY to make contact with the opponent. This is a good thing though, since we get to understand the feeling of being hit and how important speed and accuracy are to our techniques as a whole.

    Perhaps it's time we, as an organisation, look to either:

    - Clarifying the contact guidelines about what is acceptable contact, or
    - Introduce a separate level of tournament rules for full-contact, like WTF?

    By rights, if you knock out your opponent, you should be disqualified according to traditional rules. But this rarely happens - why are we still contradicting ourselves?
     
  2. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I spar with an ITF guy all the time. He seems to be pretty competent (kicks my ass) in sparring at full contact.
     
  3. WastedFox

    WastedFox New Member

    I don't doubt that.

    But it's a common misconception: ITF is not supposed to have heavy contact, yet we go hell for leather and don't enforce our own rules.

    Why, then don't we simply accept heavy contact as the norm and document our rules as such?
     
  4. Hapuka

    Hapuka Te Aho

    There are a few ITF practitioners here on MAP, I used to be one of them myself. One of the things that annoyed me about ITF Taekwon-do when I competed in sparring were its rules. For me it got to the point where it felt more like a complicated game of tag more than anything else.

    Here are the rules for sparring as stated by http://www.tkd-itf.org. These were the same rules that I sparred under while I was in ITF Taekwon-do here in New Zealand:

    Rounds:

    2x2 minute rounds with 1 minute break
    *In the case of a draw, an extra 1 minute round will be granted

    Target Areas:

    • Head at the front, sides and top of the head but not at the back.
    • Trunk of the body from shoulder to navel vertically and from a line drawn from the armpit vertically down to the waist on each side (that is frontal area only, excluding the back).

    Minus Points/Fouls:

    • Heavy contact.
    • Attacking a fallen opponent.
    • Leg sweeping.
    • Holding/grabbing.
    • Intentional attack to a target other then mentioned in art.

    Warnings:

    • Pretending to have scored a point by raising one or both arms.
    • Stepping completely out of the ring (both feet).
    • Falling down, whether intentional or not (it means any part of the body, other than the feet,
    • touching the ground).
    • Faking a blow, pretending to be injured to gain an advantage.
    • Intentionally avoiding sparring.
    • Adjusting equipment during the bout without the consent of the Centre Referee.
    • Unintentional attack to a target other than mentioned in art.

    Disqualification:

    • Misconduct against officials or ignoring instructions.
    • Uncontrolled or excessive contact.
    • Receiving three (3) minus points/fouls directly given by the Centre Referee.
    • Being under influence of alcoholic beverages or drugs.
    • Loss of temper.
    • Insulting an opponent, coach and or official.
    • Biting, scratching.
    • Attacking with the knee, elbow or forehead.
    • Causing a KO.

    Now, there is full contact Taekwon-do (Pro Taekwon-do), the difference in rules being;
    • Full contact force is permitted.
    • Knock outs are permitted.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLkc_wtRih8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLkc_wtRih8[/ame]
     
  5. WastedFox

    WastedFox New Member

    Basically, that is awesome. Unfortunately, we'll never get such a tournament style to be accepted as standard. Guy in blue should have been penalised for landing four punches in a row, btw.

    I love our sport, but I hate how we contradict ourselves at every single turn.
     
  6. Caleb Demarais

    Caleb Demarais Valued Member

    At the black belt level, heavier (but still not excessive) contact than colored belt divisions is usually permitted by the referees because the fighters seem to prefer it (I know I do) and they can cope with it better. In my opinion, ITF sparring is a semi-contact sport and "semi" = "moderate contact with control." Watching two black belts go at it is certainly far more appealing than tip-tap crap you see at some tournaments.
     
  7. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    What's the point in semi-contact anyway? If everybody prefers full contact, why bother?
     
  8. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member

    I see it as a stepping stone to full contact. If it was full contact from the get go how many people would drop out of classes in their first few weeks? Start with light contact, to semi and then if you wish full contact.
     
  9. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    They're different skills. Also, sparring at full contact clubs isn't that crazy, and people are wearing decent protective gear. TBH the injury rate at full contact clubs is typically way less than at semi/light contact ones,
     
  10. WastedFox

    WastedFox New Member

    Kyokushin/Muay Thai/Boxing etc don't have this problem. You don't go full tournament-level contact during regular training, nor do you EVER allow new students to participate in full contact until you've judged their ability to handle it.
     
  11. Lad_Gorg

    Lad_Gorg Valued Member

    Enter the cult of gen. Choi.

    But I think there is a paradigm shift towards more contact in modern years.
     
  12. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Why does TKD insist on hamstringing it's competitors?
    Pro-TKD = No hooks or uppercuts!?
    Hooks and uppercut/upset punches are all over the patterns and basics. Why omit them?
    Seems odd to me.
     
  13. WastedFox

    WastedFox New Member

    Remember Pro-TKD is not ITF-sanctioned, nor does it even seem to be still up and running, far as I can tell. Their website hasn't been updated since 2010.

    ITF allows hooks and such, but they're not really seen much. There's too much leeway for them to be judged as excessive contact, far as I've been told.

    If you're going to use them, they basically have to be perfect form and even then, we're starting to shy away from judging points based on form nowadays.
     
  14. Hapuka

    Hapuka Te Aho

    If I may be blunt, basic boxing skills in general aren't really seen much in ITF sparring.
     
  15. WastedFox

    WastedFox New Member

    Of course they aren't. TKD is not boxing. We don't spend all of our time in close. Punches are also (generally) less powerful than kicks and attract less points. They're still used, but no, they're not anywhere near the level of that of a trained boxer. They don't need to be.

    The point that was made In a full-contact ruleset like Pro-TKD though, which allows for KOs, eliminating most of the available hand techniques makes very little sense.
     
  16. Hapuka

    Hapuka Te Aho

    If kicks are more powerful, then why limit the amount of punches that can be executed?

    And what about other martial art styles like ITF Taekwon-do that have both kicking and punching in their curriculum but display overall better hand technique than of those that do ITF Taekwon-do?
     
  17. WastedFox

    WastedFox New Member

    Like we JUST said, only Pro-TKD did this. ITF does not limit what punches you can use.

    What about them? Different scoring systems dictate different strategies.

    Kyokushin: Does not differentiate points based on using punches or kicks. All it cares about is knocking the opponent down.

    Muay Thai: Same thing.

    ITF: More points for kicks, less points for punches. It was put in place to differentiate TKD from karate or kickboxing. Punches are mostly worth 1 point, kicks can get you 2 or 3. If I land two good punches, though, that gives me the same points as kicking you in the head.

    If you gave punches the same points weighting as kicks, you'd see more punches and better punching skills, it's that simple.
     
  18. Hapuka

    Hapuka Te Aho

    When I competed in ITF there were restrictions on how many punches you could throw and what sort. You weren't allowed to execute more than two straight punches at a time, and circular punches weren't allowed; hooks and uppercuts.

    Yes, I agree. The scoring system in my opinion for ITF is flawed, which is reflected in how its practitioners spar. If a kick is worth two punches, even if a punch is executed at knockout power and speed, landing a slower and weaker kick in comparison will result in more points for the practitioner. Not to mention throwing a knockout punch could get you disqualified. So I can see why for starters ITF practitioners tend to put more emphasis on training in their kicks rather than on their punching game.

    I would also go one step further and state the way how punching is taught in general in ITF Taekwon-do cannot be translated effectively over to sparring:

    Hands on hips during drills and patterns - results in face generally being exposed in sparring and telegraphed punches.

    Punching square on during drills and patterns, when practitioners generally spar side on. Stances; walking stance (too square on) and L-stance (too much weight on back foot) - can result in poor footwork.

    The practice of sine wave in ITF; real power comes from the rotation of the feet, hips, shoulders and arms. Not from bobbing up and down, which is evidential in the fact that you don't see ITF practitioners using sine waves in sparring. - results in lack of balance, power and speed in general punching technique.
     
  19. WastedFox

    WastedFox New Member

    Limitation on punching types and quantity must have been a house rule of your tournament organisation; it's not included in the rules in the Encyclopedia or on most major ITF websites.

    It's a bad rule, agreed.

    It's not really flawed. It's always had the philosophy of legs being the strongest limbs, and the scoring system reflects that. At least it's not the WTF scoring system :)

    The best work all of their available tools together in their training. You're going to get in close at some point, which is when you start punching more and kicking less.

    ITF punching is basically Karate punching.

    No school I've been to, no tournament I've attended, teaches hands on hips during sparring drills. Patterns are a different thing.

    Your stance, in ITF fundamentals, does NOT dictate your shoulder facing ('cept maybe in sitting stance etc), only the position of your feet. Four-directional punch alone teaches this. Shoulders are half-facing when blocking mostly, and full-facing during the punch, as we bring our hips and shoulders through with the attack.

    ITF sparring ends up more in Fixed Stance than anything else (a wider L-stance with even weight distribution).

    Sine-wave (as originally defined), is nothing more than your body being sunk every so slightly into each attack, the same way our hips move up and down when we walk. It's not this "bobbing" thing that some ITF fragments have brainwashed themselves into believing.

    It is just the natural sinking of our hips when we move forward. It's not something blatantly obvious, it's actually a very subtle thing that our body does naturally.

    For example, when I step out into a side kick, my centre of gravity comes up when I chamber and is lowered when I extend. That's all sine-wave is. When I step out for a reverse punch, my centre of gravity lowers slightly, all by itself. That's sine-wave.

    It just means "don't be like Karate and move forward like a train on rails".

    Hip rotation, generating power like a boxer is part and parcel of our fundamentals. It's there in all of our basics and our patterns, but we fail to realise this sometimes. This stuff was taught long before "sine-wave" was coined. It hasn't gone away.

    But this is all now getting off-topic. The topic was about how we define the level of contact in our rules versus how much we enforce them.
     
  20. Hapuka

    Hapuka Te Aho

    Karate is a very broad term, speaking of which I did IOGKF Goju Ryu Karate-Do (which is similar to Kyokushin) after ITF Taekwon-do, and yes, it has its differences ranging from; what punches are taught and were permitted in sparring, positioning of the hands, there is far more emphasis on rotating the body on each punch and no sine wave.

    I was referring to step sparring, and general drill work (in rows practicing technique).

    Yes it does actually if you're punching properly. Your non punching shoulder should not be extended back, but level with the shoulder your punching with as Grand Master Park Jung Tae demonstrates.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1bmj7pzg9g"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1bmj7pzg9g[/ame]
     

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