Is your xia dantien full?

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by gerard, Jun 1, 2005.

  1. Durkhrod Chogori

    Durkhrod Chogori Valued Member

    No big deal, names are just names. At least I don't hide myself behind a fictitious self as most users do in here.

    Gerard Banhidi.
  2. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    Not to nit pick here, but most Qigong that is available to the public does NOT address the cultivation and alchemical processes to cultivate Jing to Qi and Qi to Shen. This is even pretty high level and rare techniques that are usually only taught through oral tradition.

    Also there is the point of Intention, if you are only doing Qigong to build Qi and (such as Onyomi pointed) not for spiritual "enlightenment" then this will not come about. Qigong is just like a physical exercise, just by doing exercise you won't get ripped abs, you have to FOCUS on the abs. Qigong is great b/c you can isolate what you need to do, cultivate Jing, Qi and/or shen. Usually this is through a progression of stages you cannot cultivate and change Jing to Qi if you have no/little Jing to begin with so you start with a Jing building Qigong.

    What it seems you are pointing out is more Shengong training this is "Spiritual" Qigong. Qigong is merely building qi and is a precursor to Shengong, the goal during Qigong is to increase Post Heaven Qi by breathing and exercise, then most get interested in increasing it through other means (sexual cultivation, diet, exercise, herbs etc.).

    You can easily do Qigong without worrying about doing Shengong.
  3. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    Not all traditions interpret jing, qi and shen in the same way. Ours interprets "jing" as all the fluids and excretions produced by the body, including hormones. These are important ingredients for cultivating the qi, which is like energy that moves through the body (I think it's very much about how circulatory and nervous systems interact, meaning oxygen could very well be one of the closest equivalents to this "qi.")

    In our school, "shen" doesn't mean "spirit" like in "spiritual." In our tradition there are two primary shen, the brain and the yuanshen (original shen), which is the dantian. These are like the two "brains" you nourish with your qi. Therefore, cultivating the mind and dantian=cultivating shen. If you can reach the level of entering "meditation environments" (that is, you can have experiences akin to waking dreams or out-of-body type things when meditating) then you are already cultivating your shen (this level generally takes several years).

    The level after shen cultivation is called "wu" or "nothingness." This simply means that all the processes happen on their own without your conscious intervention. Your way of breathing and using your muscles will have already changed such that the qi circulates strongly throughout the body, nourishing the jing and shen without any conscious effort.

    Also, it's not a one way street. It's not like once you get jing to qi to shen that then your jing gets used up. All three of them just get stronger as your qigong practice progresses. The idea that once you can cultivate your shen you therefore use up your jing is incorrect. It's not that you stop producing hormones or lose all sexual desire (quite the opposite, really), it's just that nourishing the shen will give you a happier, more optimistic outlook on life to the point that you are no longer slave to your desires.
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2007
  4. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    No it just makes alot of sense... usually it's obvious when a user changes their name and as such I'm smacking my head at not realising the obvious.

    Also, since your name is Gerard and you changed from Gerard to Durkhod Chogori without mentioning... I don't quite get the point about fictitious selfs. Anyway, going off topic and I think Taoquan and onyomi's discussions are more relevant and interesting. Oh and to be fair my name is Chris Kavanagh hence CKava.
  5. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    You are right onyomi, different schools do teach it differently and I agree with what you have posted. I was just trying to point out that the meditative aspect that you mentioned is usually termed more Shengong as you are now cultivating more spiritual energy.

    I also absolutely agree with you that "it is not a one way street" b/c in shengong training your jing and qi are getting nourished b/c the spirit is being nourished. As we know in Qigong/Shengong or any kind of "energy" work the physical/emotional/mind/spirit are all intertwined. I merely meant that Qigong training is a bit different in the fact it tends to focus more on Qi, where as Shengong tends to work much more on spirit. However, both can yield the same results ultimately, it is just a matter of steps usually.

    As far as I was taught you still have to cultivate your basic foundations (i.e. Jing, then Qi, then shen) to be able to have a strong Shen. If the Jing or Qi is weak Shengong training is NOT fruitless, but you could progress much further with developing your foundation first. This is the problem with sooooooo much "Qigong/Shengong" teachers out there.

    They promise these great "spiritual gifts" and teach you high level stuff that they more than likely book learned or took a weekend seminar w/o having any idea how to build a foundation (I have exp. the same ideas with Mantak Chia's work). Except there are some (like Chia) who seem to want you to truly go far, but spend minute amounts of time building your core strength in the jing and qi areas. Though this is also what makes book learning these ideas SO dangerous b/c the teacher is not there to guide you on what areas you should focus on.

    From the basics you described it seems that your school have the ideas right and they correspond pretty close to Taoist training. From my experience most Qigong starts out as you described, it is the Shengong training that differs greatly. Then you are indeed getting into "spiritual" aspects and some of those (not all) are based/influenced heavily by religious backgrounds.
  6. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    Mine is considered a "Buddhist" school of Qigong (supposedly from Shaolin, but that may just be a legend). It contains techniques for training the mind and brain probably akin to what you are terming "shengong." As you say, they are not well-known techniques and are not something you would just figure out on your own from qigong basics. However, it's all qigong to me, as I consider the mind and body to be inextricably linked. Training the brain to use a higher level of energy is a natural extension of training the rest of the body to do so.

    Imo, whether or not training the shen is "spiritual," largely depends on the individual and his preexisting belief structure, if any. If you already believe in God , angels, etc. then when your meditation leads you to have an extraordinary, transcendent experience then you will likely interpret said experience as contact with the divine. If you don't believe in any gods per se, then you may merely attribute them to a change in brain chemistry/function, as I do. Imo, the experiences you can have meditating (which can lead to permanent changes in your everyday consciousness), though quite remarkable, are not intrinsically different from the experiences you can have by ingesting say, MDMA, LSD, etc. Therefore, I personally only consider it a type of "training" the brain to be open to experiences and levels of awareness most people don't have.

    I don't see the need to appeal to gods or spirits in order to explain it and neither does my teacher. It's all about personal development. However, I consider that to be more along the lines of psychological development than "spiritual." Qigong can definitely affect your psychology, purging pent-up emotions buried in your subconscious and whatnot... however, to me that's all just part of the whole healthy mind-body thing qigong is going for. If you want to call purging sub-conscious hangups and emotional baggage "clearing karmic debt," and sublime meditation experiences "becoming one with the Way," then that's fine with me. I just chose not to. It's not a matter of the "level" of the training, it's about personal interpretation.
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2007
  7. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    Well said! :D

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