Is your xia dantien full?

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by gerard, Jun 1, 2005.

  1. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    Hmm.... Ms Zorya... do you think it's a coincidence that after trying a variety of styles of qigong over a period of years (qigong, like Yoga, having as one of its goals the increasing of the brain's awareness to be able to achieve "spiritual" experience) that you then happened to have a life-changing spiritual experience?
  2. Durkhrod Chogori

    Durkhrod Chogori Valued Member

    I was kind of metaphorical.

    In practice: China and Taiwan are prime locations; the latter better as they nourish Traditional Chinese culture a lot more than in mainland.

  3. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Well, firstly, some of the religious stuff happened way before I started doing any qigong, in fact, if I think about it, I could legitimately say that my religious experiences took a break while I was engaged in qigong, and they only started again after I had knocked qigong practice on the head to focus on practical martial training.

    That said, even if your theory had been true, what would you make of God then clearly telling me that qigong was interwoven with magic and other human egocentric practices and to remove every trace of such practice from my life?

    My initial goal was solely to restore Taijiquan as a purely martial practice and remove all the "health and spirituality" baggage that was distracting people from useful practice. It took quite a while, and some quite aggressively martially-focussed marketing to attract real martial artists into my classes. I never foresaw myself going down my current road - I started out convinced that spirituality had nothing to do with martial arts.

    It has only been since removing the qi that I have noticed how angry and malevolent many qi believers are, and how insistent they are on keeping the qigong practices - so much so that I would assert that for most Westerners in IMA, the arts fill a spiritual / religious vacuum for them, and that is far more important to them, or becomes so, than their martial training.
  4. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    ah yes, but how do you know? and have you ever thought? ...
  5. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    Qigong is all about health of mind and body. There are spiritual, medical and martial schools of qigong. For the most part, there is no spirituality involved in traditional CMA training or the qigong that goes along with it.

    I agree that to practice Taiji to fill some kind of spiritual void is a distortion of its original purpose as a martial art. I would not say the same is true of Qigong/Yoga, since historically, both have been practiced by religious practitioners for spiritual goals. However, lots of people also practice qigong purely for mind-body health and to enhance martial practice, myself included. There is no spiritual element to my qigong practice whatsoever, though I could easily interpret some of the experiences in a religious context if I had a preexisting belief structure onto which to impose them.

    You sound like you're lumping qigong in with witchcraft when many people only do it for improved health or martial ability (yes, IMAs are designed to take advantage of the kind of body mechanics qigong enhances and also to take direct advantage of the kind of muscular and breath usage qigong trains).

    As to your experiences... well, I'll leave you to them, but don't you think it's a bit ironic for you to start attacking qigong on the basis of it being unscientific with a motive like "God told me to"?
  6. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Heard it all before, Onyomi. How many scientists believe in God? A lot. How many reconcile science and religion perfectly? A lot.

    In fact, how many scientists have looked for answers in science, only to turn to religion as the most rational explation for things that science cannot explain? There is no conflict. Qigong people claim that qi can achieve things so those things need to be tested - there needs to be scientific evidence to substantiate their claims.

    Also, the methodology needs to be understood in sceintific terms so that it can be ascertained whether or not any effects are wholly good or lead to unwanted physiological or phsychological side effects.

    Finally, the practice should also be assessed for whether or not it is ethically or morally acceptable, and religion needs to play an important part in making decisions of that magnitude, as the majority of the world's inhabitants see God as the ultimate source of right and wrong action.

    So my questions are:
    1) Does it really work (and can it be proved)?
    2) How does it work?
    3) Is it a spiritually or morally healthy practice? Even if it is found to benefit individuals, are there any hidden costs? Does it also serve the greater good, or does it work against it.
  7. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    You know I have been meaning to ask you about how that vest was doing for ya. Heck honestly I never thought the check would clear, though thanks to you promoting my Qi Vests on the forums sales have skyrocketed thanks for that! :D By the way I have a special on the new model right now that comes with a built in water bottle so you can take it anywhere and not be thirsty ( a real problem with the older models!) a steal at only $1000! If you buy more than 5 I can throw in an old model for half price! get em while they are hot!!!! And save yourself from Qi bullets :woo:

    On the other note getting into a religious Qi debate is always iffy and is somewhat (By leaps and bounds) :topic: Though I think it no secret that everyone that knows my posts know I do practice Tai Chi/Qigong/Meditation for the spiritual aspects of it. I have nothing against any other religion (was raised lutheran, wife is christian, cousin wiccan, other cousin buddhist) and I think what JK, mentioned about egocentric and angry people can match any religion or spiritual path. I have met many from all religions and spiritual paths that exemplify these qualities as well, or become overzealous in their own preaching. Though I realize that is the INDIVIDUAL and not the SPIRITUAL practice!

    That is important to remember we cannot judge an entire practice b/c of bad experiences with individuals for it is the individuals that warp teachings. I hope to any of you I have not come across as one of those "Preachy" types b/c I value what I practice I might get defensive (who doesn't?) but I hate to press my ideals and beliefs on people, for they are mine. I merely want to remove some of the "smoke and mirrors" of Qigong/meditation practice that is out there. For those that do practice these techniques (and some of you that don't) you all know that there is some really bad stuff out there. Though this can be true for anything.
  8. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    Not much time, but will try to answer somewhat quickly.

    1) Yes it works, I have seen practitioners come in hopeless for western med (many being on 13 different types of medication) all to have their same complaint go on and now they have tons of side effects of new medicine. They start to practice Qigong and they gradually begin to feel better, much of their complaints going away, their western MDs stumped as to what happened (sometimes chalking it up to spontaneous remission). For these people it did work, is it the magic cure all that everyone claims?

    No, what is? there is no "magic bullet" for all disease this a pipe dream. Can it help in conjunction with other treatment modalities (alternative and western) absolutely. At the very least Qigong is physically increasing breathing capacity, reducing stress and increasing light physical movement. All of which are ideal for people with chronic illnesses, in this respect western exercise has little to nothing that is comparable.

    2) This is the almight question, some say by decreasing stress levels and increasing respiration you can bring your body back into homeostasis, thus allowing your immune system it's natural ability to heal. I have partcipated in a small breathing test where I was hooked up to a machine that reads your oxygen and CO2 input/output. The doctor that measured me mentioned that my breathing was unbelieveably consistent and optimum with my Qigong breathing, that my oxygen and CO2 measurements were almost balanced and he had never seen this before.

    *I don't have time to get into the specifics about why that was good, but I can clarify if this is of interest to anyone*

    B/c of your body maintaining this state of homeostasis many "great and wonderful" things are capable for the body to heal on it's own.

    3) Yes, but as my post above it depends on the individual. Many practitioners I have met (including myself) have gotten into it solely to help people. The doctors I have studied with believe "That a persons health should not be compromised based on financial situations" Bottom line, money, power, fame don't matter, only helping others does. I have witnessed the doctor I observe with weep openly with his patients during both good (healing a pain that western MDs were not able to touch, actually telling patients it was "all in their head") to bad, death of family members etc.

    I have worked very hard to find this compassion with my teachers and fellow students, b/c I know of the evils that are out there and how Qigong can be portrayed. All Qigong/meditation teachers I have worked with (with the exception of a few, that is why I am not with them) have emphasized the power of compassion and caring for others. This to ME is part of the greater good.
  9. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Well you know, I was going to add that I don't expect anyone else to accept my experiences as evidence of God, or try to get people to pray to God, or make claims for "the power of prayer," or state that any one religious path is the right one...

    but I think we need to be a bit wary of stating that ALL spiritual practices are OK, given that some of them are in direct conflict with the big ones.

    Regarding your "there is some really bad stuff out there. Though this can be true for anything." I think magic and Daoist magic do cross some pretty worrying lines.

    But as you say, it is all :topic: so maybe we should all let it drop. We've done it all before, haven't we.

    $1000, you say? I have been getting rather thirsty. Would you consider a part-exchange deal?
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2007
  10. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    p.s. just read Taoquan's second post - I'm sure time will tell how much qigong stands up to scientific testing, and whether the active ingredients can be extracted to reduce side effects (e.g. qigong psychotic reaction), as happens with many other medicines. I think given the acknowleged placebo effect of some herbal medicines, and the increasing moves towards patient-led treatments in the NHS (National Health Service), some GPs in the UK might well say "well if you feel like it does you some good..." while privately remaining unconvinced of the science behind it.
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2007
  11. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    I just wanted to say that the reason I have made this association is because I have had dealings with and been contacted by a sizable number of people for whom qigong is intrinsically linked to Daoist Magic, and who see Daoist Magic and Witchcraft as compatible and interchangeable systems.

    I know you will tell me they are mistaken and missing the point, and to a degree that is re-assuring but for a number of people in the UK, the different disciplines are certainly acting as gateways to the other.
  12. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    1. Yes. I could prove it if you gave me access to a large sample of potential qigong students and a bunch of scientists ready to measure all kinds of stuff before, during and after a longish period of training (I think it would take a few years for the benefits to become really obvious).

    2. I understand this to a certain degree and have already explained what I do understand in other posts. I don't understand it completely, but then, neither do Psychiatrists fully understand how anti-depressants work. I hope the entirety of the mechanism by which qigong works will one day be relatively well-understood by science and that a lot of superstition and useless/harmful practices will thereby be eliminated (I say "relatively" because to fully understand it would require full understanding of how the nervous, circulatory, endocrine, respiratory and musculo-skeletal systems work.. which I think is a long way off, if at all possible.

    3. I couldn't disagree more. This is the kind of thinking that says violent movies and pornography should be banned because they might influence some to do bad things. We are adults and don't need others making our decisions for us. There are many, many things that are beneficial or enjoyable to some but potentially harmful to others. Just a few include: drugs and substances of all kinds (including those prescribed by doctors), all types of medical treatment, gambling, drinking, being a sports fan (they can become obsessive and even violent, you know ;) ) and, dare I say it... religion. Religion is one of the most obvious examples of something that is beneficial in the hands of some and very harmful in the hands of others. My moral compass says organized religion does more harm than good... does that mean I want to ban it? Certainly not, because I respect individual freedom.
  13. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    Also re. Daoist "magic"--I don't have any particular opinion on Daoism the religion, though I like Daoism the philosophy. I am skeptical of Daoism the religion as I am of all religions, but I also respect Daoism the religion as I do peaceful practitioners of all religions. What is so terrible about people becoming interested in Daoism the religion as a result of qigong practice? Is it just because it's not your one, true religion? Does it lead them to violence as Christianity and Islam so frequently seem to?

    As I said, there's no spiritual element to my qigong practice and I hope one day it will be analyzed and better understood scientifically. Still, your moral authoritarianism is pretty unpleasant. Sure, maybe interest in Daoism sometimes results in a negative change in the lives of a few people (the primary side effect of interest in Daoism being transformation into a pompous know-it-all who spouts Lao-zi quotes at the drop of a hat ;) ), but I bet you could find it as a positive influence in the lives of at least as many if not more people. I've certainly never heard of any Daoist suicide bombers... so why is interest in that religion so negative as opposed to interest in others?
  14. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Well this is where we differ greatly. I see nothing beneficial in people indulging and cultivating violent or pornographic tastes - this just leads to people craving more and more violence and increasingly sick pornography, in much the same way that someone who gets hooked on their endorphins from eating super-hot curry craves ever hotter curries.

    I would indeed ban all recreational drug use, including alcohol. I also think that cultivating tribal rivalries through competitive sports is bad, but then I am generally anti-competition, anti-capitalist and anti-consumerist. By extension, I'm anti-liberal too - I don't think ever greater freedoms are the answer at all. I have seen where that leads, both in everyday life and within radical political movements. At the end of the day, almost no one really wants "do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" to be the rule, apart from for themselves.

    Until people can take full responsibility for the consequences and deeper consequences of their actions (which is going to be a very long way off while we continue to indulge peoples' freedom to fulfil their desires and lusts) I think responsible leadership should be looking to clamp down on personal freedoms. I also think that people who are prepared to put themselves second to the greater good should not object.

    Liberalism is turning into a very oppressive dogma that applauds individual freedom right up until someone says "liberalism is a terrible idea."
  15. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    Anything you say, Chancellor Sutler...
  16. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Whats is the point in living, if there is no sex, drugs and fighting?

    P.S. watch it onyomi, the finger will come!
  17. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Paying taxes so that the politicians can do all the fun stuff for us. :(
  18. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    In response to your last couple of posts, Onyomi, it is precisely people's ability to corrupt and abuse anything - religion, secularism, liberalism, atheism etc. etc. that proves that human beings are not capable of responsibly being "their own moral compass." Religion is the current scapegoat for all ills, in our growing climate of knee-jerk, anti-religious, liberal, morally relativist thinking.

    Many atrocities have been conducted against religion and many have been committed when people turned away from their religion. Consider how the Jews were targetted by the Nazis, or how many people were killed under Atheist Communism (allegedly between 85 and 100 million). Lenin saw the elimination of religion as central to the socialist revolution and put in place measures designed to eradicate religious beliefs through the "protracted use of violence."

    On the subject of suicide bombers,
    My views are only unpleasant to ultra-liberals, incidentally. Many regular people agree with me, and I have had support from other martial artists from various religious backgrounds for the views I have expressed.

    Regarding my supposed "one true religion," as I have said on this thread, I do not exclusively promote any single religious viewpoint. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Sikhism etc. are all against magic, because magic is evil - like the ring in Lord of the Rings, there is no way it can be used for good. There can be no legitimate use for magic, as I have found out through my knowledge of magical systems and their exponents. Magic, as I have discovered, is (in the words of Rabbi Niles Goldstein) "the manipulation of the cosmos for personal gain - for love, for wealth..." [ame=""]Rabbi Niles Goldstein on the Magic of Judaism - YouTube[/ame]
  19. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    So are you volunteering to form a government with Polar Bear and Onyomi?

    People moan about how they could do so much better, but I don't see them do anything other than moan. And they still call the police if they get burgled.
  20. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Most defiantly. Except, only I am supreme leader! Everyone else must bow to me or else I get paranoid. :)

    To be honest, I don’t think much can be done other than by force. Those in power will not go easily, IMO the illusion of democracy is their safeguard. One simply has to look at the bastion of democracy to see how corrupt the idea is.

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