But thats a false dilemma your not either a 'religion hating, atheist fundamentalist' or else a believer. I wouldn't lump myself into either category for example. So I'm not suggesting that you must become a 'religion-hating, atheist fundamentalist' just that you should be consistent in your arguments. The religion of your choice should not get a free pass simply because it is the religion of your choice. I'm sorry but not believing in God does not leave one adrift unable to argue that one moral system is better than another. I've debated this with aiki several times... I'll post you some links shortly when I find them. And almost every single religion mantains that their teachings are of a genuine divine origin whereas the others are false. Can't you see that presenting arguments like this to advocate religion are entirely self defeating as they end up justifying every other religious or spiritual belief system as well. Again your appealing to the popular consensus... the popular consenus in America is that evolution is false do you think that makes that position anymore valid? Popular belief is not evidence that a view is correct. While I do agree that there are a number of harmful sides to pseudo science and magic that are often overlooked I still disagree with the justification you use for regarding something as 'dangerous'. I would consider something as dangerous if it was exploitative and well... dangerous but you consider things dangerous because they are proscribed by Christian teachings regardless of whether there is any real danger.
Fair enough, CKava, we'll agree to disagree on this one - I spent 25 pages on the Concept of Evil (Philosophy) thread, and got a bit worn out from trying to argue the case for an absolute moral standard with the moral relativists over there. The more I looked into it and explored all sides of the argument, the more it seemed that there could be no absolute standard of right and wrong without either 1) a consensus OR 2) a specific moral purpose or moral theme to the universe. Thanks - that would be good. That may be, but as my arguments come from a specific religious viewpoint, I don't have a great deal of choice in the matter. They only seem to justify other religious or spiritual beliefs if you believe that all religious or spiritual viewpoints are equally possible or justifiable. I believe that while some religious ideas are completely ungrounded immoral nonsense, others are well considered, moral and completely plausible. It cannot matter to me that other people see differently - it can't be a popularity contest - if you believe that something is right, and you have plenty of evidence for that belief, that's it unless someone manages to disprove it. I find lots of moral truth and wisdom within Judaism and Christianity that I just don't find elsewhere. It's not like I haven't looked. I was an atheist myself once, too. I am a lot more convinced of what I have now. Some of us go towards religion, rather than away from it.
Here are some links were the topic is addressed ad nauseum: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55044 http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46530 (And here is the related atheists are nihilists discussion) http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56026
Thanks Thanks that helped alot, but i am seeking a master with very high level gong, or energy what ever you would like to call it i have much knowledge and energy my self and can do cool things, my currt master can do amazing things too but i am seeking a master with even more energy do you know of any in the houston Texas area ????? Thanks
Hi All, I get confused... Does anyone (well OK any ADULT) REALLY believe in 'chi' as a manipulable and usable health and martial force or is it just smoke and mirrors to tease the newbs? If anyone does and would care to come - or allow me to visit - and play not fight/maim/kill just play/show/demonstrate (In or near Bedfordshire or Derbyshire in England) then I'd welcome the opportunity to be wrong Mind you the last person who had the courage to play was (many years ago, when we visited him at his home in Sarasota) Rich Mooney and he tried the Empty Force stuff on me, my wife and our kids and sadly it didn't work. However Rich showed me some neat martial stuff and I left impressed with his ability and sincerity - even if I personally believe that Chi effects are a rapport or hypnotic effect rather than any esoteric and as-yet unmeasurable energy. All the best. Robert. --- Robert Agar-Hutton
Yes, qigong is very real. Is qi a substance altogether seperate from nerves, blood, oxygen, neurotransmitters, hormones, etc.? Maybe not. Maybe it's just a concept that works really well to describe the subjective feeling created when these complex biological factors react to this type of exercise. Qigong is just a type of exercise, but one very different from the usual and one which can also exercise your brain. Yes, it can be used to remarkable effect for the purposes of health and martial arts. No, you can't move things without touching them. No, it's not likely your local Taiji instructor is good enough at qigong to actually understand how it can apply martially. And what's the deal with thread necromancy? And one of the stupidest threads ever at that. Couldn't we start a new retarded qi thread?
Okay, So yes I have decided to respond to this thread as it seems like it has devolved into every other Qi thread brought up on MAP. A person asking a simple question or posing an idea of Qi and gets flamed for doing so, then the entire debate begins. I care little to get into the debate as we can only prove that these ultimately go no where fast. But I find it hard to believe that other MAs are so quick to turn down other ideas/thoughts/beliefs from fellow MA just b/c it may be "new" or "esoteric". I have stated many times that anyone that teaches Qigong to "give you these miraculous powers" is quite simply a charlatan that has no idea of Qi/Qigong to begin with. The idea here is quite simply this: Say you are training in a MA and you learn this new counter to a simple punch/kick. You work at this counter, learn it through and through and spend hours training in it till it can easily be performed. Now do you stop all your training there b/c you learned one counter? You now have one "trick" under your sleeve is this all there is to it? Quite simply NO! This is the same idea of Qigong, Qi, meditation, prayer etc. have always been associated with being able to develop certain "abilities" this is wrapped in culture, religion and belief systems. Say you are practicing these methods and you develop an "ability" do you stop there and claim it is the end all be all method? No, most people that practice Qigong, meditation etc. are more concerned with spiritual development and less concerned with "abilities". Many believe these abilities while gifts are ultimately pitfalls for students to get lost in and not seek further spiritual development. As I stated before any Taoist/buddhist teacher I have studied with has NEVER flaunted any of these "abilities" but all say they are possible. Anyone that does flaunt or claim to have these "abilities" is merely like the MA above that seeks to only learn one counter to a punch. I also have never come across a Teacher that teaches only the Qi aspect of Tai Chi Chuan or any other IMA. They all require very vigourous physical training and emphasize just as much meditation/Qigong training to where they are equal (2 hours of training would include 1 hour qigong/meditation 1 hour physical exercise/exertion). You have to keep in mind any that advocates too much of either is in a state of excess and this does NOT keep within the Taoist theory and thought of balance. Sorry to bring in a few other ideas here, but I feel it prominent: Based upon the above Empirical evidence of Qi also exists as I can site similar experiences, even when I was once skeptical (and still am honestly in some cases). However: In this case Qi does not exist, we have established this. Though who is right, who is wrong? I commend both of these posters above for holding onto their own ideas/beliefs for your OWN ideas and beliefs (imo) cannot be wrong, so long as you truly follow them with an open mind and heart. Bottom line is we will always struggle with personal exp. and whether or not they can be quantified by any kind of scientific means. This does not mean that either side is right or wrong, to me the most important thing, is to practice what you feel and love what you practice. If you find a practitioner/teacher that teaches "esoteric" knowledge of Qi/Qigong and that is what you believe and/or want, don't let anyone discourage you from doing so. However, if this is what you don't believe in or want then simply walk away. There is no point practicing something you cannot put all of yourself into. You are ulitmately just wasting your time/effort and life as well as the instructors. I think there is an inherent need for people to say they are practicing "the best, longest lineage, true MA" these don't exist. The only thing that makes anything "The best" is the time and effort YOU put into it. Now back to answering some of the original questions brought up within this post: During my training I have heard this often as well, but that is due to MY background. As stated above is it right/wrong? who cares I enjoy my practice. I will relate one story that was told to me by my teacher about William C.C. Chen. Mr. Chen was practicing Tai Chi in a park in China when he met a strange Taoist that was also practicing Tai Chi. After his form the Taoist walked up to Mr. Chen (who at this time had been practicing and teaching Tai Chi for a number of years) and mentioned that he (Mr. Chen) was not relaxed enough. Mr. Chen of course was curious about this and asked what the Taoist meant. The taoist then asked Mr. Chen to demonstrate "Golden Pheasant/**** stands on one leg" as Mr. Chen did this the Taoist grabbed Mr. Chen's leg and commented: "You have a good root, but I can feel your muslces, they are bulging and strong. It should be like this." Then the Taoist proceeded to do the same posture. He asked Mr. Chen to feel his leg and to Mr. Chen's surprise there was absolutely no muscular tension. The Taoist could even flex and single out muscles while in the posture. The Taoist simply told Mr. Chen that one must be completely relaxed to realize Tai Chi. Mr. Chen shared this story with my teacher and commented that this is what he would try to achieve till the end of his time. Was the Taoist a good MA? Who knows? All he did was teach a different approach or idea to another practitioner. Mr. Chen was open to the ideas and did not disregard his own practice, but implemented new thoughts/theories. I personally believe this is a very rare quality in a MA. Humility and being humble. To pose an answer to this question, Anyone that practices Qigong for some time (mostly years) will begin to be able to "feel" certain areas of deficiency and/or excess within another's body. Sometimes these can be physically seen in severe cases, i.e. a person that closes in and rounds the chest, maybe the abdomen is either distended or bloated, they may walk with a stiffness in head/neck/shoulder/back. However, after practicing Qigong for a long time, my own personal exp with being able to "read levels of Qi" is limited, but I have had experiences. For example one thing I was taught was to simply place one's hands above another's body (about 4-6") and just slowly move them over a person's body. Sometimes you will "feel" a hotter sensation or colder sensation over certain areas. Sometimes one may be "drawn" to a certain area and "feel" as though their hand is being repeled or pushed away. Other times you almost instinctively want to massage an area b/c it feels weak. Does this work 100% of the time, no, but honestly what does? I have seen my teachers do this and ask the patient if they are having trouble in this area. Most of the time the patient has either had trauma there or it is their Chief Complaint. I have seen some practitioners I observe with be able to tell if a patient has recently had bouts of cancer with this method (w/o any prior knowledge). Though once again I want to point out it is not 100% accurate. I have been taught that this is a beginning level of "Qi sensing", higher levels are able to see it from time to time, others merely sense it in their own bodies, some merely use intuition. So if you practice with it enough, I could see how someone maybe able to quantify an amount of Qi in any given area. Especially if they do it everyday on many patients for decades. Onyomi and TJB as always great posts, everything you two posted correlates to what I am also taught. With a few differing exceptions: 1) Right on and great explanation, though I would like to add that Pre-natal Qi is also what comes about to "call" your spirit to come into being (at least what I have been taught) I have also been taught that Pre-natal qi is NOT limited and can actually be restored, though minutely when compared to Post Natal Qi. 2) Same as I have been taught and I have also seen the evidence of this in practitioners of Qigong etc. 50-60 year olds that look 20, a certain bright "inner" clarity that is likened to holy men etc. 3) Pre-natal Qi as I was taught resides where TJB explained above, but also within what the Taoists term as "The Tai Ji Pole" This can be likened to the exact center of your body, the very core. Think of the Chakras in Buddhist thought, but the "Pole" that connects the chakras is where Pre-natal Qi also resides. This is what allows an individual to connect with the divine/god etc. So (I think it was in another post) one could measure their own Pre-natal Qi. 4) It can be preserved as well as regained as I mentioned above, though regaining requires VERY intense and deep meditation, devout prayers and living in a very pure (monk/priest/priestess) lifestyle. Practicing Qigong and Tai Chi are ways to cultivate post-natal qi and refine Pre-natal as TJB mentioned. So sorry for the long post, but I wanted to at least make a few points that were valid and to try to also help shed some light on the questions. As TJB mentioned also, I am no master, just a student. I know many will disagree or have a hard time "swallowing" these ideas, this is fine. I have always tried very hard not to offend any others for their own practices/ideals/beliefs and simply ask that you all do the same. Remember regardless of what is believed by many/all/little/none we are still human beings and should treat each other with respect, honor and compassion. Though as I mentioned earlier I care little for the debate of existence of Qi, but those that are curious should at least be given answers. It is then up to the individual whether or not to seek out more. To that end, let the flaming begin.
Hi TQ, welcome back. You shouldn't let yourself get so worked up about it all. The problem is, qi doesn't help you hit stuff any harder. Also, motivation is the single most important factor in assessing the worth of a system, in my opinion. If people are seeking to become more spiritually powerful, that is a no-no. Morality on the other hand is a worthy cause.
To India and China? Oh and welcome back Taoquan it's good to see your reply! I agree with JKzorya about not getting worked up about debates though I don't think you really have that problem.
I agree, I look at Qi more from a healing perspective, kind of like kicking in the bodies own natural immune system. Though, I have heard the other stories (haven't we all) about some of the things that can be achieved in using it for combat purposes. I have not trained this way so I have no way of knowing, I cannot comment on how effective it can/cannot be for combat. Though I have exp. first hand it's effectiveness in various forms of healing. this is where I think we get the dual aspect of cultivation for injuries happen in MA, Qi (imo) is effective in decreasing recovery time, helping others stay healthy day to day, stress free etc. Where as you need to train the physical body within the MA to learn to punch/kick/chin-na etc. So essentially you could achieve either state with any kind of medicine, perhaps it is just more personal preference. Thanks for the welcome back as well, time wise I will not be around so much. But I will pop in from time to time, I never felt I got worked up over debates, but the problem I feel is they never go anywhere. Even if say I did travel and convince people Qi was "real" I would have to travel all over the world there would still be skeptics etc. I would rather train, besides who has the time???
In my experience, Qi discussions are destined to degenerate into people citing personal experiences of one kind or another, and then the other side completely dismissing these experiences in favour of their own... Completely natural. For example, I don't believe for one second the jkzorya saw "god" emerge from a tree in any form, let alone that of a lion. But it's her experience and nothing I can say or do will change it, for it is what she chooses to believe (sorry to pick on you there jkzorya, but it was the best example I could find). My suggestion?? Everyone should forget the qi debates and just get on and train. No matter what your approach to training, if you're sittin' here chattin' away, you ain't gettin' better at Taiji!
Yes - the ad said "Are you bothered by those pesky chi bullets? What many people don't know is that these days qi can fly around with a variety of different spellings. That's why QiawayTM with its revolutionary new patented anti-energetic fibre-weave design can protect you from qi, chi, ch'i, ki and 27 other kinds of hostile energy. There really is no catch. You won't be sorry." It was a bargain at just $199 and do you know - I haven't had any troubles with qi since? Well by that argument, no one would bother with forums at all. And if people finally get convinced to forget about all that silly qi stuff, they'll have way more time to do useful training...
