Is Wudang “not very good”

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by Maui Taoist, Dec 26, 2011.

  1. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

  2. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    For example, here's my Wudang Shifu Yuan Xiu Gang, a disciple of Zhong Yun Long
    [ame=""]Wudang Taiyi Wuxingquan - Master Yuan Xiu Gang - YouTube[/ame]
    That reminds me, must practice my Taiyi...
  3. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    REPORTEDLY one of the greatest centers for Martial Arts. Chinese historians have been known to exaggerate.
  4. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Impressive at what though? Choreographed moves? Forms?

    Not that good movement isn't desirable and impressive... and it's always interesting to estimate ones ability to move with their martial arbility... but you run into the age old can of worms if the nice smooth and lithe movement can be carried over once they are actually getting hit. At which point 99% of all conversations as such run into 'I do Muay Thai RAWR!!' or 'MMA is t3h 0nL33 1" - and descend into stupidity and in general aren't conducive to much conversation. I'd rather avoid that. So I'm curious what is it about them that looks impressive? Could you post up some examples of what you think.
  5. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    I am unfamiliar w/any historians,Tang Hao,Gu,Liu-xin,Adam Hsu,etc, making any claims that Wu Tang was some great martial center.
  6. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    I'd wonder if it's not actually more a pop culture phenomena/reference. The whole emergence of kung fu via Bruce Lee/Shaw Bros. and other chop socky type films onto popular culture has had in my estimation far bigger impact on most people training martial arts than have Chinese historians.

    Most educated Chinese unless educated specifically in Chinese history don't have such a great grasp of Chinese history... let alone westerners who probably wouldn't have had much if any exposure to Chinese history through out their educations. This holds true for sifus and exponents for Kung Fu as well - most would be hard pressed to be able to break down Chinese history into an order of chronological events or break out the major accomplishments of each era etc.

    In a sense... it's not all that shocking. Given what education in the western world has been. China beyond Mao and tidbits of gunpowder and the Great Wall haven't really made the radar. Even now that China's on the news every single day and the darling/demon of the media... most westerners still can't name the countries it borders... for that matter... neither can most Chinese.

    Perhaps with a history that is that long and with so many twists and turns it's to be expected. But I digress...

    My main point that pop culture conceptions of Kung Fu tend to be most peoples information about Kung Fu and by and large... about China. Mention Wu to most people and they can easily relate to Wu Tang Clan but have no clue that it was actually a Kingdom in ancient China... no more so than they'd really have any grasp of the Berbers, the Gauls or the Sarmatians.


    Yes this is always a risk with history. It's inherently told by the victors... and often the waters are further made murky by nationalism and all sorts of other ism's. No one region/people is immune to this. China has a real issues with this - histories being rewritten to toe the party line. Artifacts being presented in order to shore up one or more nationalistic aims. With archaeology there are some real issues in that the manufacturing of fakes in China is a cottage industry and a very sophisticated one at that. So much of what is in foreign collections and even within state collections in China is suspected to be fake. The actual items long ago sold off to private collectors at tidy sums. This doesn't look like it will end any time soon. Collectors are keen to stay under the radar, traders and smugglers don't want headlines and museum curators definitely don't want to get mixed up in the bad publicity.

    With China's current regime being what it is... they work fast and furious to censor anything and anyone that doesn't toe the Han dominated Central Communist Party Line. That even goes all the way down to persecuting authors and historians who are seen as airing dirty laundry or anything that even seems remotely critical of the power structure in China. Two names that spring to mind are Li Datong and the work of Yuan Weishi (Zhongshan University History Department professor Yuan Weishi) - both names are linked to heavy handed censorship and persecution for publishing viewpoints on history (in particular - Yuan Weishi's Modernization and History Textbooks).

    Though I suspect this is a subject that is so pervasive in Chinese history and current affairs that it might be best to break this off into the Culture sub-forum here at MAP. Not that I expect to see a lot of conjecture on the topic... people want silky pajamas and cinematic kung fu moves... not a grounding in history and culture.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2012
  7. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Wu tang is not very good;

    [ame=""]Wu Tang Clan "C.R.E.A.M." - YouTube[/ame]
  8. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    The hip hop group Wu Tang clan actually takes there name from this:

    In the fight world the song was probably mostly associated with a very early Ernesto Hoost HL video that featured a remix of Wu Tang clans 'Bring Da Ruckus'. Classic 90s K-1 Highlight that was done by Sherdog forums. I was a huge Hoost fan... still am. He pretty much fought a who's who of K-1 rules fights. Looking at the list of his opponents is like a history lesson in K-1 rules kickboxing.

    [ame=""]Sherdog Ernesto Hoost Compilation - YouTube[/ame]

    but I digress... I'm sure the people of the Wu Kingdom never thought their name would live on with a professional fighter of Dutch origin and a hip hop group. :D
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2012
  9. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Wu Tang...Wu Dang...Wu is all a pentagon of the same....
  10. embra

    embra Valued Member

    This is an example of why contemporary CMA is controversial. I am only going to skim on the top of this subject for now, as I truelly don't have much free time. I will try to return to this later, as I believe it to be fertile ground for intelligent discussion.

    There are numerous 'Wudang' schools of Kung Fu, Taichi, Bagua and other semi-esoteric MA; including the Taichi that I train in; namely Cheng Tin Hung lineage TCC courtesy of Ian Cameron and Dan Docherty. Cheng Tin Hung's son and associates still train in Hong Kong to this day.

    In and around Wudang mountain range, there seems to be a plethora of 'Wudang' schools, including the 1 that Sifu Ben pointed to. Indeed, this fellows's students teach various aspects of CMA in Edinburgh. Some of my fellow TCC folk have been along to 5 animals Qigong and came away with very favourable impressions - so it can't be a complete sham.

    One site that seems to catalogue a lot of Internal CMA, with a number of references to Wudang is - I have to delve into this a bit deeper.

    One aspect of the recent 'Wudang' phenomena that is very difficult to reconcile is the association to established lineages. If we take Taichichuan, which conventionally breaks up into lineage paths of Yang, Chen, Wu, Wu Hao and Sun; with some arguments about whether the Chens or Zhang San Feng were at the origin of TCC. Exactly how do the 'Wudang' TCC schools of today align to the established and acknowledged styles? - probably not at all, for one reason or another.

    What is 'impressive' from Wudang in youtube land? Well as Slip points out, a lot of Forms and Choreographed routines; and not much in the way of Sanshou, Shiao Jiou, applications or even Pushing Hands.

    However, one that did catch my attention is this fellow Lu Zijian, who is allegedly still training at 118. If this truelly is the case, then that is remarkable.

    At the end of his breakfall routine with swords he does seem to be struggling slightly for balance, but it is still pretty good IMHO. Not sure how long ago this was or what age he allegely held at this point in time.
    [ame=""]A 116 éves Lu Zijian mester - YouTube[/ame]

    The same fellow, maybe some years earlier.
    [ame=""]93 years old and still flying - YouTube[/ame]

    I do wish they would take the silly music away from these vids, silence is best. To anyone looking at Bagua movements and thinking 'easy' - try it and see if you can even approach the circular alignment, postures, timing, rythym and pivoting - and this is just basic stuff. The swords are more complex however. For the record I am a novice Bagua practitioner.

    Publicly stated as 118 years old and as a Wudang Master

    Apologies for not getting this last URL to embed properly - can a mod assist me - I have tried fiddling about with it.
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2012

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