Is there Japanese internal martial arts?

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by Brand New Day, Feb 29, 2008.

  1. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    "Negative" is a made up idea. Binary thinking isn't the only way to look at things.


    But do they mean the death of the ego, or a much more pracitcal and attainable skill - acting without intent, i.e., physical thought, i.e. the body thinks and reacts, by-passing the conscious mind. By-passing the conscious mind isn't the same as slaying the ego - although, if you're saying it's just a poetic way of saying the same thing, then we're in agreement.
     
  2. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I have NEVER be thought of as poetic. :D But yes we are saying the same thing.

    Since we are training "for that one time we may be fighting for our life" We seek to by pass the conscious mind and go from aware to 100% attack in an instant.

    Another concept is enten jizai "attack and defence" as one. Meaning the body movement that takes us off the line of attack or enters us inside it can be seen as a "defensive" movement which is also an attack in the same instant. Since the defence is contained in our attack the kokoro kamae "attitude of mind" tends to "displace" the concept of defence and leave us with an almost purely attacking mind.This attitude of course is only adopted at the first sign of real danger.

    regards koyo

    regards koyo
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2008
  3. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    tull rules :p :topic:

    agreed, although a lot of people focus their training in the wrong direction, or are just taught wrong.
     
  4. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Yeah man - I've seen the mighty Tull twice - superb both times!
     
  5. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi fish

    I have had the privilage of seeing Kanazawa and Enoida training together. And my main aikido instructor Chiba shihan cross trained with Enoida. I only heard that training as they were in an adjoining dojo.

    Anyone who has seen the originals knows that all of the arts are effective when applied properly.

    And all of them have a synthesis of katachi kamae (attitude of body) and kokoro kamae (attitude of mind) external and internal TOGETHER if you like.

    regards koyo
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2008
  6. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    i can't help but agree, the original masters knew a lot, and it has all become thinned down, but when you see some of the oldest masters training, you realize that you don't get there by trying to bash open skulls or by just sitting there meditating, you have to train in a balanced manner with a dedicated mind and a responsible attitude.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2008
  7. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    As you say. My main teachers were Chiba shihan and Saito shihan . before they came out of Japan in the seventies I was training with Noro shihan. He was so gracefull in his movement that he could have easily be seen as an "internal" martial artist. BUT that IS SWEAT on my hakama.The emphasis was always on knocked down 8 get up 9. That was considered "tough". Rather than the number of people you could knock down.That could also be considered "internal" training.

    Training with Noro shihan
     

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  8. Sub zero

    Sub zero Valued Member

    Ju Jitsu definately has an internal element to it. As do every style of kung fu i've come across. As for Karate i remmeber reading somewhere, i think in a book by Kanazawa, that in the higher dan grades a tai chi form of sorts was tuaght in Shotokan. I oculd be wrong could ahve been a different style (e.g. goju-ryu) and a different master.

    I think the importantthing to remember is that every martial art be i japanese or chinese (don't want to comment on others not really trained in them much) have internal/external elements it's all about emphasis.

    Thanks,
    Jamie
     
  9. hl1978

    hl1978 Valued Member

    undoubtedly yes. You can see the signs common in most JMA that exist in CMA.

    As I have studied IMA more and more, I have started to realize why we do the things we do, in the karate/judo/JSA I have studied. all the talk about center/hara/relaxation etc are references to internal principles, but it doesnt seem like the average student/instructor realizes that. As such they copy the form without the substance.

    If you are looking for a JMA that is pretty much entirely internal, check out the aunkai. Some koryu explicitly train IMA as well.
     
  10. jonwade

    jonwade Valued Member

    Ki aikido, and much of what goes on in iaido could be considered internal. IMO it is different cultures describing similar things in different ways. Internal, spiritual, meditative, energy, chi, qi, ki, energy etc.

    I think that where CMA are misunderstood is that some people think of internal styles as being solely internal, whereas really they have an emphasis on internal development and practice, but ultimately any martial art involves beating an opponent, otherwise it just ain't martial. Many people like to think of their tai chi etc as being something of a higher level, but if you cannot use those years of internal training to beat a thug that comes at you with his hams flailing at you, then you really are missing something.

    All martial arts are ultimately hard. Just sometimes the journal to that final impact has some softer lessons. If you crush a man's windpipe using a tai chi method of a kick boxing method, then end result is the same.

    At least that is my approach.
     
  11. Azeari

    Azeari New Member

    Ego is a hinderance. In a fight it should be put to the side. Generally, I put it aside at all times. An Ego can lead you to make stupid decisions or idiotic movements. Emotions are great, i'll never knock them, but they don't belong in a fight either.

    I train because I enjoy training. I enjoy the sensations and movements. I train because I want to be stronger, have more grace, and to cleanse myself. Ego has nothing to do with that.

    That being said, I do have an Ego.. i'm just saying it can get in the way.
     
  12. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned


    Ego is everything to do with that. "Ego" doesn't just mean things that we think of as necessarily "negative", nor are things that we necessarily think of as "positive" without ego. Far from it.
     
  13. hl1978

    hl1978 Valued Member

    here is a demo of some japanese IMA

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbvipmVYGzA"]Aunkai Akuzawa demo - YouTube[/ame]
     
  14. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    That looks to have a real chinese influence to it. There are a number of Japanese masters who have taken influences from Chinese arts.


    regards koyo
     
  15. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Looks rather Pa Kua-ish to these eyes.
     
  16. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    As does this photograph.

    It shows O Sensei Ueshiba founder of aikido performing a kokyo ho exercise.

    Although the emphasis is on proper breathing (internal) the solid posture and strike with the left fist shows the solid (external) element of the technique.


    regards koyo
     

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  17. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Careful, Lao shr-you're opening the door to another "did the founder study PK while on the mainland?" threads!

    Of course I meant in regard to the way he in the vid was moving,-(not the techniques-such as getting behind and dropping the opponent)- certainly doesn't look like something indigenous to the Floating Kingdom.

    Nice photo-thanks for the view.
     
  18. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    I've read some answers in this thread, but not all, so sorry if there's repetition.

    In my opinion, most attempts to separate internal and external arts spiral down into internalists bashing internalists with negative and inaccurate stereotypes. "External arts are about muscle stiffness." Not true. I've never trained in an external art, or even heard of one, where practitioners are encouraged to carry muscle stiffness. It's a commonly-seen bad habit, particularly in places where instruction is subpar, but it's NOT a part of external art instruction. "External arts are about meeting force with force instead of avoiding it and flowing with it." So was Muhammed Ali an internal martial artist because he could bob and weave with the best of them in the boxing ring, instead of soaking up punches like a real-life Rocky Balboa? (Rope-a-dope excluded, of course). "Internal arts aren't about using muscle." Move your arm without contracting a muscle. I dare you. It's a physical impossibility. If the tendons in your arm are severed, all the qi in the world will not move that limb one inch. "Internal arts aren't about punching and striking." Tell a xingyiquan practitioner that. It's one of the three most-referenced internal arts, and it's full of punches, stomps, elbows, and the like.

    Having trained primarily in external arts (a few different ones over the years), and having dabbled in taiji here and there, and now starting it again seriously, I have to say that the one critical distinction between internal arts and external arts is qi (or ki in Japanese). Whether you think of this as an actual force/substance that you can cultivate, or whether you think of it as a highly-effective visualization that makes your body operate in the way you want it to operate, the focus on qi/ki is the ONE critical distinction I've seen between my taiji training and my external arts training.

    So yes, aikido is a Japanese internal art (the only one I'm aware of off the top of my head). Not because they use joint locks, but because ki, and how to use ki, is a central part of aikido training. Not something you see in mainstream judo, even though many of the joint locks are the same. And that's why aikido is internal and judo is external.

    Just my opinion and how I use the terms. Your mileage may vary.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2008
  19. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    As almost all Chinese systems at some point practice ch'i cultivation/utilization-(in theory,at least)-your statement that the difference twixt int & ext systems is ch'i is as much an erroneous stereotype as the ones you cite.Your examples of ch'i usage/theory are the same as those utilized in some "external" Chinese systems.

    I would also note that the types of criticism leveled towards "externalists" you mention are usually made by armchair warriors or marketing specialists.

    Bear in mind that the theoretical division of internal/external systems did not exist until Sun.Lut'ang put this idea forward in the early 1900s.

    The only real difference I've personally discerned is that the "internal" Chinese systems place a heavy emphasis on certain mechanics,mechanics that most of the other Chinese systems utilize some of,but not as many as the "internal" systems.Still,basically a physical difference.

    You may also find that the conceptual idea of ch'i in MAs varies.koyo's take from an Aikido-ka's perspective is different from that of a Chinese system practitioner.
     
  20. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Ki ken tai ichi is common to all martial arts. The TRINITY of fighitng spirit (internal) ken (technique) and tai (power and placement of the body)

    choosing to say that your art is internal or external seams to be denying this principle.


    regards koyo
     

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