Is there Japanese internal martial arts?

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by Brand New Day, Feb 29, 2008.

  1. Brand New Day

    Brand New Day Valued Member

    Excuse my ignorance, but i really don't know. Normally this term is associated with Chinese styles... are there any Japanese equivalents?
     
  2. nready

    nready Verifying DMI pool....

    No!

    As to why, the Chinese say the Japanese are to thick headed to have such a thing. :p


    :rolleyes:
     
  3. cheesypeas

    cheesypeas Moved on

    Japanese MA's that have internal qualities - Aikido and Ninjitsu, off the top of my head (at this time of night)
     
  4. Bronze Statue

    Bronze Statue Valued Member

    There are also Japanese interpretations of Chinese neijia-quanfa.
    Taikiken (modified yiquan) and Hakkesho (modified baguazhang) come to mind.
     
  5. Sandus

    Sandus Moved Himself On

    Aikido is an internal martial art that is often taught as an external art. Some schools still teach the "internal" aspects of it. What those aspects are is debatable.
     
  6. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Fighting spirit, awareness and observation are the "internal" aspects of aikido. Personaly i think all arts should be BOTH internal and external. Emphasising one over the other creates imbalance.


    regards koyo

    "external" technique using "internal" decsiiveness.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 1, 2008
  7. Hapuka

    Hapuka Te Aho

    What are internal martial arts?
     
  8. boards

    boards Its all in the reflexes!

    They are usually classified as being tai chi, bagua and xingyi. What an internal martial art is, seems to be poorly defined. The most common definition seems to be that they dont use brute strength, and rely on soft relaxed movements combined with "chi". Most external martial arts that I have seen tend to say that you shouldnt be using brute force anyway, so the difference tends to be rediculous. Another definition claims that it is Taoist rather than budhist, and that the term internal refers to an internal religion.
     
  9. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Internal is a myth.
     
  10. cheesypeas

    cheesypeas Moved on

    Arrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh!! :D

    We agreed to differ!!

    But, can I ask if you discern any difference between the so called external and internal MA's?

    For the record, I believe that all martial arts have external and internal elements, dependant on how they are practiced.
     
  11. nready

    nready Verifying DMI pool....

    That is just a thought process, in Chinese systems internal is not about thinking something. It is in learning to bridge or read right when contact happens where the body of the person is going or planning to go. In truth all system have some type of that reading ability in it. The thing that the internal focus training on is that, and they become very good at it.

    Internal I think came from the fact of which was part of th major Government of the time, that lead to the current style of Chinese Government. The Ming Dynasty had wing chun as the major system of fighting for there Government. Hence the Wing Chun people trying to over throw the following Government of the Ching(I think) period Dynasty. Taijiquan was part of the institutional practice of certain governments of China.

    What separates it is not using strength or force but when and how you use force. The structure in maintaining the alignment is different in the Internal Martial of China, than what is used in the External Martial of China.

    BJJ from what I have seen use allot of the same principle ideas of Internal or leverage movement. Which is what Internal focuses on, leverage used to move the person with little muscle needed. The Tiger style would like most Karate system focus on how to use the out side of the body to move fast and powerfully. The Tiger pulls it pray down to it center to control and tear flesh from the body of its pray, the Tiger system trains that very idea. To look and act like the system it is named for. Hsingyiquan does the Tiger as well but there is not a need to look like the tiger but to emulate the leverage they use.

    Agree on the point of it would be best that each art have both, in reality it does not work that way. "Look at Karate" the word 'stiff' comes to mind when I see Karate and it is usually the problem for that system. Meaning both physically and mentally they become just that stiff.

    The part about the internal decisiveness is that which can make a big difference in allot of the external styles, it is very similar to what happens in the Chines internal we make sure we act. The physical training of the external style like Boxing is great for the health. Yet, that is usually not how the internal system workout.

    The thing I noticed on a personal level about the internal is there is less being all caught up in the emotions of 'that don't look cool thing'. It is approach that drops the attitude, meaning the 14 year old kid attitude. To learn many of the thing taught in the internal school you can not be adamant to the ego you currently have.
     
  12. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    I will try to find the article, but in a recent one I read about a TCC practitioner stating the difference between internal/external (If I remember right he was a disciple of Dong Ying Jie) this is extremely simplified once I dig up the article I will post more but he said:

    The main difference between internal and external is that external does indeed focus on muscular force, but so does internal. Where internal tends to come in is that in TCC we focus much more on how the joints can be used to properly distribute force without using large amount of muscular (clumsy) force. He went on to say the study of the joints actions/movements/motions is absolutely paramount to TCC b/c this should be the main way to issue force/power (rather than using muscular force, or similar to locking elbows/joints during a punch)

    As I said i will try to post more, but I am not near the article at this moment.
     
  13. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Fighting spirit, observation , timing and distancing cannot be thought processes. They must be instinctive to be effective. Therefor I would consider them internal.

    Ego can make you careless it can make you afraid and must be eliminated so that you can act naturally without negative emotion.

    In aikido riai there is a concept of "seaking out the sicknesses" meaning anything such as fear anger carelessness confusion anything that "clouds" the mind not allowing it to move freely during conflict. This I would call internal training.

    I have friends who are shihan in karate and they too study these concepts the "stiffness" often associated with karate is not apparent at high grades.

    Indeed having cross trained in numerous arts I have found the basic principles to be the same. It is the emphasis that some place upon them that creates the "differences" in the arts. I feel that a balanced approach internal and external would bring us all closer together.


    regards koyo
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2008
  14. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    curious, i had always thought internal arts were called so because of the impact they had on overall health and the inner workings of your body :p

    regarding karate stiffness, that's actually a common mistake amongst beginners, and fluidness is encouraged on all movements, even those done with maximum tension, one only need look at goju ryu practice to see what i mean, although we usually don't go for the level of sheer fluidity required of a taiji practitioner.

    just my 2 cents

    fish
     
  15. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Hi Carys - no, none at all, aside from the fact that I think that arts dubbed as "internal" are frequently less effective because their students focus on distracting non-martial considerations.

    I am aware that many novice students from the arts people call "external" can be rubbish, use brute force and disconnected movements (especially if the arts have fallen into the trap of believing the false dichotomy and identify themselves as "external" or "hard" arts), but my experience of mainstream "internal" students is that they are at least as unskilled and frequently behind their so-called "external" contemporaries in terms of fighting spirit. The best students I've encountered overall are from non-Chinese styles and do not in any way concern themselves with internal or external labels, but just get on with hands-on martial training and fine tuning a broad range of fighting skills.
     
  16. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I believe that there must be no separation of internal and external elements of the arts. Ki Ken Tai Ichi is a principle which states that

    Ki , fighting spirit, awareness , decisiveness (no mystical conotation)

    Ken, technique be it a strike throw or lock

    Tai, body mostly mobility and proper balance and alignment

    Ichi, as one. Meaning that all of these elements must be executed AS ONE to create effective martial art.

    There is nothing esoteric about these principles. It is when the two MMs are involved. Mystical at one end and Macho at the other that I find and imbalance that distracts from excellence in the arts.


    regards koyo
     
  17. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    This is true, imho. I mean, it wouldn't matter to me if people were up to the eyeballs in qi and meridians, as long as that hadn't replaced actual ability.

    Not that I mind people exploring the limitations of what they've been told, or sold - but it does rather seem like the lunatics have taken over the asylum when the top spokespeople for CMA appear to be people with limited fight ability. How did that happen?

    Man, how did we get to that state?
    I mean, even martial artists that DO believe in qi, ki, energy, whatever - from other style-bases display higher level practical skill than the average so called "internal" stylist in the west.

    And what's worse, the genuine Chinese experts are publicly put down by low level Western players.

    As fro internal and external, well, there are a multitude of interpretations. Only one really means anything - internal means proceed via intuition, unfolding your natural ability of Quan. External means copying others. A combination of both is the best way, if possible, and as far as I'm concerned, any other explanation, interpretation, spin, slant, whatever, is meaningless.
     
  18. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned


    You know, that's meaningless. Unless you were brought up as a feral child, you have an ego. "Ego is bad" is one of the primary manifestations of ego known to man.

    Ego can, it is true, be our most giant hurdle and barrier - but it is also our greatest ally. Without ego we wouldn't train at all, and we wouldn't have the interest to train, or get better.

    Human beings are most efficiently controlled by making them feel self pity - through pain, emotional torment, torture - you name it - we never stop thinking up new ways.

    Who says "emotions are bad"?? Anger is a powerful emotion, and so is wrath, pride, sense of survival, fear - all of these can be an aid to a fighter.

    My advice is don't seek to eliminate your ego - that won't happen; not unless you;re some kind of Buddha - and even then, according to Buddhist doctrine what you'll do is become aware that ego is an illusion. Even then, "you'll" become aware of it.

    Work with your ego. A good trainer will always work with their fighter's ego.

    However, ego is a powerful barrier - I believe that, truly. THE MOST difficult thing in martial arts is to admit why you train. I've been almost killed fighting twice, and still, I tell you, the hardest, and yet when the time came, the simplest thing I ever had to do in MA was admit why I trained. That, in and of itself opened up all the doors, because it told me why I cling to the things I do, and what I had to let go of to learn real MA.

    Ego, like so many things, can be an ally, or a hinderence. Don't eliminate it - change your perspective from it. That's my advice.
     
  19. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Hey fish of doom - thick as a brick, eh? One of my fave albums!!!!!

    I have a lot of time for karate - good karate classes produce some very good, extremely tough fighters.
     
  20. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I said act naturally without NEGATIVE emotions I also named a few like uncertaity, confusion, indecision and anger (unfocused).Anger so long as it is controlled can be a positive emotion. ANY emotion that goes out of balance can be debilitating.

    Most of the fights I have seen in my professional life have been because of asault on someone's ego.I have seen guys fight for no other reason that they did not want to look afraid.

    To paraphrase your words "People are most efficiently controlled through their ego." In a real fight I will NOT give control to the other guy.

    Most guys who give up training it is because their ego can't handle the discipline or allow them to admit to and face their own weaknesses.

    regards koyo

    Edit

    I am speaking from a japanese perspective and the highest areas involve moving dynamically while the mind remains "calm" and all actions are instinctive "lacking in thought or emotion."Any number of japanese swordsmen have spoken of this state. The yagyu call it mushin (no mind)
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2008

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