Is the Ubiquity of Soccer in Europe a Prime Reason TMAs didn't Take Europe By Storm like in America?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by SlamDunkerista, Jun 1, 2022.

  1. SlamDunkerista

    SlamDunkerista New Member

    Already I seen people repeat on this sub the ad nauseam argument that the Brits dismissed not just Savate but heavily leg-usage martial arts esp kicking based ones from the various Kung Fu styles of China to Capoeira and predecessors to BJJ from Brazil because because they saw kicking as ungentlemanly and that real men fight only with their fists..........

    Discounting British wrestling which as someone pointed out has sweeps and trips with knee pins and locks as well as chokes both using the legs......... Another argument I see at Quora and other places online is that while they are now mostly dormant, a big reason why Eastern martial arts did not dominate Europe as it did during the Bruce Lee Craze of North America is that traditional local styles in Europe like Savate and Zipota and Italian Fencing still existed in towns and old neighborhoods across Europe (which Catch and Freestyle Wrestling are arguably British examples). Sure they are unknown to the majority of the populace esp Middle Class in the generic thriving Metropolis, but the simple fact in neighborhoods in Rome boxing styles with some of kicks similar to Savate in are taught in local gyms and fight clubs among some isolated ghettos that largely remain the same as before the unification of Italy (with the addition of modern appliances like electricity and plumbing) is often another theory why Europe did not have the mass martial arts fad that USA experienced in the 70s and still is suffering the effects from..............

    As well as the dominance of Boxing in Europe (which another poster brings up) esp the British Isles.

    But I have a theory that is often overlooked esp since so many martial artists don't tend to be into mainstream sports and are the intellectual white collar types........

    The sport of Football (Soccer for you English speakers outside Europe).

    I have a grandma born in Scotland and lived in London for her young adult life before immigrating to America. She grew up watching violence by local Footballer Hooligan. She still tells me stories and among them is that some hooligans she knew personally trained in boxing clubs and underground fight clubs when they weren't spending the rest of their freetime kicking footballs outdoor along with drinking at pubs and brawling across many places.

    In plenty of fights she'd always notice hooligans wouldn't just box, they'd be doing toe kicks using their heavy worker's footwear , instep kicks with locked ankles similar to what she seen among karate practitioners in the 60s but almost entirely vertical, round circular kicks resembling ballet dancers and the effeminate dancing of the pansy Frenchies with their feet boxing (probably referring to Savateurs in London)-her words not mine-, hitting someone with knees, sliding leg tackles (I mean the move to steal the ball in soccer, not a MMA style sprawl and takedowns), and well a bunch of other Association Football moves she'd often used herself when playing Footy with her brother on the sidewalks of London.

    Now a few Bartitsu and Savate websites mention about Soccer Hooligans and their use of kicks so it makes me wonder.......

    Is Association Football easily one of the most essential reasons if not the prime reason why Europe didn't develop as big a fetish for Oriental styles esp Karate and Kung Fu the way Americans and Canadians as well as the rest of the world did after WWII's end?

    I mean just go watch news about the recent riots in England after Italy's victory at Wembley. Plenty of Football fans (some who aren't even into Hooligan culture but just everyday normal law abiding citizens) throwing a lot of leg strikes despite never taking a single martial arts class (I doubt a lot of them ever even learned wrestling or even Boxing).

    And if you watch old videos you see a lot of incidents not just in the UK but across Europe like a German fan knocking down a lady down the stairs Leonidas Well Scene Style in 300 and Russian gangs doing sweeps and locking legs after a game in France.

    And nevermind that we are forgetting Football's universal mainstream popularity across the whole wide European continent which takes away people from being interested in not just Asian martial arts but actively hampers the continuing growth of other mainstream popular sports like Basketball and Rugby........

    So is it fair to say the Association Code is among the prominent reasons why America took the Oriental martial arts craze far wider than Europe ever did and even today is an obstacle to MMA's growth in the Continent esp in the United Kingdom?
     
  2. Botta Dritta

    Botta Dritta Valued Member

    Didn't you spam this on the on the WMA reddit 3 months ago?

    https://www.reddit.com/r/wma/comments/t4a8rc/is_the_ubiquity_of_football_soccer_in_europe/

    "Already I seen people repeat on this sub the ad nauseam argument that the Brits dismissed not just Savate but heavily leg-usage martial arts esp kicking based ones from the various Kung Fu styles of China to Capoeira and predecessors to BJJ from Brazil because because they saw kicking as ungentlemanly and that real men fight only with their fists.........."

    Like no. No-one has said this ad nauseum on this board...

     
    axelb likes this.
  3. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Oriental martial arts were huge in the UK back in the day, MMA Is also now very very popular.

    I'm not sure exactly what your point was?
     
    axelb likes this.
  4. Botta Dritta

    Botta Dritta Valued Member

    His assertion is that football on the European continent provided some sort of substitute for martial skill, that football fans allegedly were good kickers and often got into fights with other fans mitigated the growth of Asian martial arts boom, (because Americans are incapable of kicking)

    The proof he provides for this is anecdotal evidence from his grandmother, some videos of football hooligans kicking people, and unsourced savate and bartitsu websites claiming some sort of connection between soccer hooligans and martial kicks.

    Oh and apparently European neighbourhoods were full of underground local martial arts styles whose memberships were good old fashioned proletariat fighters (who probably went to football matches) unknown to those middle classes living in generic thriving metropolises.
     
    Dead_pool likes this.
  5. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    My main question, is why is this being posted?
    It sounds like he's about to sell dvds of his European proletariat kick fencing system.

    Which now I've said it, sounds awesome!!
     
    axelb likes this.
  6. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Honestly I think there is something to be said for kicks being looked down on in certain places and eras. The notion of a "square-go" or fair fight.
    And maybe the effect of widespread Football on fighting?
    British people seem much more prone to use headbutts I think. The good old Glasgow kiss!
    While Americans perhaps more prone to "tackle" due to hand-egg and wrestling?
    But with that said when people get "emotional" they tend to fall back on haymakers and bad grappling no matter where they are from.
     
    Simon likes this.
  7. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    If you watch the press conferences the boxers resort to grabbing and wrestling and the wrestlers throw the haymakers.
     
  8. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Any time the fighting gets "real" at a BJJ competition they don't start pulling guard, inverting and doing berimbolos...they start hitting each other! :)
    There's something to be said for applying BJJ in a self defence situation but when the emotional content is there things do change.
     
    axelb and Simon like this.
  9. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Indeed and when it comes to self defence if your visceral responses aren't hardwired then you'll end up going all caveman.

    Hannibal is very clever with words and if we are doing scenarios and he questions you, then you only have to pause for a moment and he'll say something along the lines of, "Aren't you sure, because in your statement you were very positive".
    This leads you to doubt yourself, more pauses and in the end you end up running toward a dead end.

    If it's not practiced again and again then it'll fail you when under pressure.
     
  10. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Surely the higher levels of immigration from Asia to the USA rather than Europe/UK in the 50s-70s would account for oriental martial arts being more commonly found in the states during that period?
     
  11. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Seems to me that one of the main drivers in America was soldiers in the Korean war training in things like Tang soo do (like Chuck Norris) and Taekwondo and then coming back at the end of the war and bringing that training and influence with them.
    European troops also served in Korea but didn't seem to bring back that same Asian martial arts connection in the same way as the US troops.
     

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