Is the Takamatsuden one big cult???

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Please reality, Apr 20, 2016.

  1. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Well,

    I've been on self imposed ban for awhile but thought there was one last thing worth writing about before I make it permanent, and that is cults. Many outside and inside the Takamatsuden see the Bujinkan(in particular) and other Xkans as cults. Before answering this question, we must first define what a cult is in a martial sense as there should be some difference between a religious cult and a martial one. A quick search :google: yields:

    a small religious group that is not part of a larger and more accepted religion and that has beliefs regarded by many people as extreme or dangerous

    a situation in which people admire and care about something or someone very much or too much

    a small group of very devoted supporters or fans

    great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad

    the object of such devotion

    a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

    a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object.

    "the cult of St Olaf"

    a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular thing.
    "the cult of the pursuit of money as an end in itself"

    synonyms: obsession with, fixation on, mania for, passion for; More
    a person or thing that is popular or fashionable among a particular group or section of society.

    So based on a simple look at many of those definitions, I can tell you that without question, they are. However, based solely on these kinds of definitions, a great many other martial arts and other pastimes could also be characterised as cults as well. The real question is, "Is there something wrong with a martial art(martial arts club) being a cult? And herein lies the issue.

    If a martial arts organisation or leader of such organisation has undue influence over its membership to the extent that they control their member's behavior in personal matters and/or those outside of the realm of the martial art, then yes there is probably something not right there. Making life decisions for one's students is not positive, and there have been many examples of just this happening over the years(those who have been around have their own stories that they could share I'm sure).

    However, the Bujinkan for example isn't a cult, it is a conglomeration of many cults of personality that are all pointed towards the worship of Hatsumi sensei, or Takamatsu sensei, or whatever Shihan(yes I mean Japanese guys who studied decades directly under Hatsumi sensei) or Shidoshi or whomever they chose to look up to. This worship can be simple martial admiration and dedication to wanting to move like the object of said admiration, which in and of itself is not negative. However, and here is where you should hear sirens going off in your head, it is often taken to the extreme of mimicking the fashion of one's guru(yes I mean leg warmers, towels or scarfs on the head, mannerisms, pet phrases, etc), walking around quoting them or talking incessantly about them, praising their every move(even when mistaken-and we all make mistakes), or at the far extreme, letting them sleep with your spouse or borrow money, or other things that no intelligent and logically thinking person would let someone else do.

    Over the years, Stephen K Hayes, Brian McCarthy, Wayne L Roy, and many others created cults around themselves and eventually left the Bujinkan with many of their loyal true believers. Both Manaka and Tanemura sensei left the Bujinkan for their personal reasons, but both had people wishing to idolise them join their organisations as well, so cults are not only to be found in the Bujinkan.

    This is not uncommon in the martial arts, especially where there is a steep curve for achieving mastery and a heavy time requirement. As the Takamatsuden is a combination of several arts of different breadth, each requiring a lot of study and refinement to master and become useful, it shouldn't be surprising when we witness those with a small piece of the puzzle prostituting that knowledge(usually not actual skill but exposure to something that others don't have), trying to use that kernel to try to convince others that they have a whole box of gourmet popcorn.

    As many aspects of these arts are not in the public domain, and as even people who trained with Hatsumi sensei for decades got exposed to different things and developed at different speeds (and were corrected or not by Hatsumi sensei to different degrees); the lack of worldwide uniformity should come as no surprise. Are there Shihan who are better than others at different things? Of course. Were there aspects of the ryu that were taught to some that others weren't taught? Yep. Were some better at locks and throws and others at weapons or ukemi? Duh.

    Will the average Westerner still ever know(or be able to do) a fraction of what even the least trained Japanese practitioner can? Doubtful.

    Yes, the arts are capable of being mastered, even by foreigners. If a handful of people each generation were able to do so, then it is something the can be repeated.

    So even if there are people who willingly give their own personal power and control to those they idolise, one doesn't have to engage in cultish behaviour to study the Takamatsuden, that is a personal choice that one makes when choosing a teacher and how one wishes to pursue their own martial path. If one can separate the skills and skillsets from the personality of one's chosen teacher, they have a better chance of being able to acquire them. If however, one is impressed by presents, facetime, ego, flair, trappings, and everything that doesn't have to do with ability and actual personal knowledge, one might find themselves running around in the cult of the art instead of actually learning the arts proper.

    It is hard not to blame the "victim" when they personally choose victimhood. If you can't protect yourself from your own frailty, then why study self protection in the first place? So in conclusion, the Takamatsuden contain many cults, but being a member of a cult is not a prerequisite for membership. If one has fallen into cultish behaviour, it is one's own responsibility, and it won't help you learn the arts, so it is better to not let your ego get involved. To become zero, you must let it go. You will be respected more and probably taught more if you are taken seriously as a martial artist and not suspected of being a martial tourist with one's own dreams of gold belts and patches, blogs and seminars, and fanboys who dress like you and call you Shihan.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2016
  2. BohemianRapsody

    BohemianRapsody Valued Member

    So I dye my hair purple, get over it.
     
  3. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    The ability to manoeuvre around the distractions is another basic separating point in these arts but then again everyone is studying for different reasons. No two teachers are equal just as no two students are. We may wish to pretend that they are but all know deep down that martial arts are no more fair and equal than life is.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2016
  4. llong

    llong Valued Member

  5. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    By those initial definitions I'd say ninjutsu is a cult. Then again by those definition those guys who pushthe BJJ lifestyle" are cultish too.
     
  6. MaxSmith

    MaxSmith Valued Member

    The BJJ lifestyle crowd is a good example. I would say the tapout crowd at mma gyms is another.

    Every martial art has some share of cultish followers, who tend to be people looking for an identity outside of their own. I'd say there is less of it in styles that compete because competition tends to keep your ego honest.

    I'd also say the largest amount of cultish behavior is found in ninjutsu and/or wing chun communities. Lots of people wan to be ninjas or Bruce Lee. The iconography draws them in.

    Doesn't mean they don't have serious practitioners as well. It's just that the signal to noise ratio is a lot greater.
     
  7. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    To answer the OP, Is the Takamatsu den one big cult? No.

    It's a bunch of little ones.
     
  8. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    I think your definitions are not very good. I would look instead to warning signs............I think these define a cult more than what you wrote.

    http://culteducation.com/warningsigns.html

    These IMO are signs of a cult. Also, from reading up on cults in the past. Things like separating members from all outside contacts- friends and family outside the cult. Members being asked to give up all their finances to the organization.............
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2016
  9. garth

    garth Valued Member

    I've said this before in that the bujinkan is the opposite of being a cult. I see Dr Hatsumi expousing free thought, freedom to train with whoever you want and even mixing things in to what you are doing. There is no "You must do it this way". So in essence complete freedom. I don't even think he cares anything for what many do.

    You turn up to train in Japan Great, you don't and I don't think in many instances he cares.

    However that doesn't mean that there are not groups (I'm talking of westerners here) who don't run their own groups like a little cult claiming they are the only ones with the true message.
     
  10. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    The term has come to have negative connotations but it doesn't necessarily refer to something bad. Any social group that holds beliefs that deviate from the norm can be a cult.

    I've said for a while that many if not all TMA are cults to one degree or another.
     
  11. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    It's quite traditional to control your students I think
     
  12. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    8/10 isn't bad :D
     
  13. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Not until you shared it. Considering the source, I found it interesting.

    Those weren't my definitions but ones found at random. My fear of cults is more related to religions, but there are many in the martial arts who demonstrate many of the same signs. I don't attribute any special significance to the fact that my teacher could take most anyone out before they knew what was happening, beyond the respect I have for his abilities. As a person, he is someone I look up to and my trying to emulate his amazing physical ability would not automatically correlate with a desire to mimic his personality or give up my identity to feel closer to him.

    The cultish behaviour I see the most in the Bujinkan at least comes from those with something to gain from it. It's definitely and interesting topic, and one that was raised in the emusha shugyo thread.
     
  14. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Meh. Some people really enjoy ninjutsu. Leave them to it I say.
     
  15. pearsquasher

    pearsquasher Valued Member

    I think Asian cultures come across generally more cult-like than Western ones - rules, social norms, obedience etc

    MA also comes with a lot of cultural baggage morphed by the Western practitioner.


    I see more cult-like behavior in Western dojo than Japanese tho. Go figure :)
     
  16. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Sorry for the slight derail but I wanted to make a short comment on this as I feel it's not a fair assessment of Asian cultures. Certainly select, specific elements of some cultures, but nothing 'Asian'.

    This isn't really true brother more of a perception bias. The tradition of cults and sects across Western societies is vast and affects nearly every nation on Earth and quite a few governments have a history of being founded, supported, or governed by cults. There are really countless examples of all the things you listed in Western societal structures, in some cases, they were quite brutal to non-comformists, right up to and including torture or execution. The 'West' both ancient and modern brought us quite a few cults and sects that were very culturally ingrained. Greece, Britain, and greater Europe all have a history of cults or cult-like entities gaining political power. There was certainly a very strong element of cult-like behavior in World War II-era Germany, which was largely based on older European cultures with cult-like practices including the occult. Not to mention, the mass emigration of persecuted folks in Western nations to other Western nations from cult-like authorities such as 16th century Puritanism encouraged global emigration, such as the early settlement of the Americas by non-native peoples (where even then, some strict societal regimens survived for hundreds of years before coming more or less under the rule of common laws enacted by democratically oriented societies, a departure from theocratic rule).

    Even in the modern age, you can point to any of the newer religions such as the Mormon/LDS sects and find a whole range of cult behaviors, especially in the more extreme sects such as that of Warren Jeffs. And of course, one of the most famous 'pop' cults of the 1960's, the Manson Family, occurred right in California.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2016
  17. Count Duckula

    Count Duckula Valued Member

    By that definition, the Xkans are most definitely a cult.
    The above list ticks all the boxes in my personal experience.
     
  18. skuggvarg

    skuggvarg Valued Member

    Yes, we are a cult! Now that thats been settled. Lets move on. :rolleyes:

    Regards / Skuggvarg
     
  19. llong

    llong Valued Member

    Yes, this is merely a question about vocabulary. Are people being brainwashed? Are people unable to exit? Are people give up their families? No.

    Some people leap more firmly into the regalia than others, as per the article Ben Cole wrote. They usually grow out of it. What sticks is then called custom.
     
  20. Count Duckula

    Count Duckula Valued Member

    You laugh, but I can say that Genbukan enables people starting a cult within the context of the Genbukan organization. It is true that people's lives outside are not subject to the cult, but if you want to stay a member, the person above you has you by the short and curlies.

    In Genbukan, the person above you in the food chain can demand you do all kind of chores or tasks. You can refuse of course, but that just means you get no decent training or get to get to do exams.

    There is also NO way to train under another sensei without the explicit approval of the person above you in the hierarchy. I am subject to my sensei, he to his, his to a shihan or Tanemura sensei himself. You do not get to bypass him for any reason whatsoever, even by something as simple as an email or facebook post if he does not want you to. And he decides with whom you communicate in the org, with whom you train, whether you get to go to Japan or to a taikai, etc. The money goes upstream as well. Your sensei also CAN demand you buy equipment via him. And virtually every thing there is, he gets to call the shots if he wants.

    Note that I used the word 'can'. I am sure there are plenty of branches in the hierarchy which run on goodwill and flexibility from both sides. However, if you or your sensei is in conflict with someone above him, there is NOTHING you can do because the hierarchy is holy and no matter what the issue would be, Hombu dojo enforces the hierarchy.

    If there is a conflict, there are basically 3 things you can do:
    1) suck it up
    2) resign
    3) try to communicate via someone else in the org and get kicked out.

    If you want to remain a member, you accept anything and everything that gets dropped on your head from above with a 'hai sensei', both on and off the mat.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2016

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