Is Tae Kwon Do actually "useless" against other styles?

all i was trying to do was show that someone that can effectively close the gap safely, can then render tkd "useless". that's all. if a principle of martial arts is to control range, when someone closes inside of kicking range into clinch range, well then there's a problem, right?

if you enjoy tkd, then by all means, do it. have fun at it. train hard at it. i personally don't have a problem with people training in whatever they like. but if you're going to ask the question, i just wanted to show some videos. not trying to offend anyone. sorry about my "welcome to 2012" comment. i was just trying to be funny. i love you guys. :love:

 

My problem with these particular videos is they are presented as 'challenge matches' and yet the guys in the videos are not throwing with 'intent' or anything. They seem to be standing there waiting for something to happen. And when they get on the ground it is true they don't have a clue.

Note that I have been 'that guy' who totally gave up his back. Posted his hand on the mat and gifted a kimura, etc, etc. I am not taking anything away from the practitioners or the effectiveness of BJJ.

The problem is that they present these as 'challenge videos' and it looks to be something else entirely. I have seen BJJ practitioners get angry over these same videos and say, "This does nothing to promote the art of BJJ. I can imagine someone going into one of these schools and getting pulled into doing these videos and then thinking, "Man! I just wanted to sign up for classes and they threw me in the middle of the room with a bunch of people watching me get my butt kicked." Not knowing if they went to another one they'd have received the welcome interested new students should get..."

 

Just watched the videos posted... I didnt before as I usually think the so called 'challenge match' videos, are usually one sided set ups...

If these are decent TKD guys (as much as a Gracie is considered a decent BJJ guy).. how come the BJJ guys kick more than the TKD guys.. in one of the vids, the 'so called' TKD guy didnt kick at all!!

Also, the vids are in fully matted gyms - home ground perhaps!

I take it striking with fists wasn't allowed! Was striking allowed at all!

Won't mention the size difference in the 2nd video, or the fact that Gracie wore a Gi and belt and the TKD a T-Shirt and no belt... must of not wanted to rip his dobok or get grabbed by his belt!

So yup.. I can see the relevence and point of these videos... don't practice TKD when its taught like crap .. same as any other art taught as crap really!

Stuart
Ps. Point is.. these so called BB's were not representative of the art of TKD to me... and ground (lacking) skills aside.. didnt even represent decent TKD from what I saw.. so how does such videos prove a thing!

 

IF is the keyword here. IF someone can close the gap. Conclusion is: its down to the practitioner, not the style. If he can't close the gap he will be kicked around the place so the other style is rendered useless. Simple isn't it?
I never understood people bragging about this style is better than that etc...
To the OP: it does not matter what style you study as long as you have a decent instructor and you are 100% dedicated to become a good fighter. This is only my opinion but I'm sure many will share this.

 

no it doesn't matter what style you study if that's what you enjoy.

that's a faith-based statement you're making. that if you dedicate yourself to some "art" and have a "decent" instructor, you'll become a good fighter.

 

I totally agree in terms of so called 'Challenge matches'. I didnt realy take that into account I just saw it as a training clip.
I just think that training or clips where by you break down fundamentaly or discuss logicaly and unbiased about where TKD lacks or the problems it faces against other styles is a very relevant discussion or could be.
I passionatly do not agree with TKD guys that just bury there heads and dismiss such things or make excuses. Its either TKD is too deadly or TKD ,if done correctly or as originaly intended, contains everything already. Its nonsense.
The truth is it lacks certain fundamentals and not because its bad or a poor martial arts.

 

True.
You become a good fighter by fighing and losing and learning. To become a good all round fighter you have to be able to actualy fight all round....on the feet, on the ground and in the clinch. You have to fight in these areas. One guy could have no coach but fight often and be better than a person with an appantly good coach and style who never fights.

 

oh my. i just watched this. just putzing around at work and did the ol' "mma versus tkd" search and got this video. i'm not posting for any other reason than, damn, that hurt.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6EDuaIrDLg"]MMA vs. Taekwondo - YouTube[/ame]

 

Nothing is more powerful than to smash the back of your opponent's head on the hard ground. Excellent clip.

IMO, even if he may not be good in grappling, at least he needs to train how to deal with it. To allow his opponent to smash his head on the ground like that just mean he doesn't know how to protect himrself in such situation. When he still hangs on and not trying to protect his own head, that's not very smart.

 

Haven't watched the vids, I'm on the move and the internet connection isn't great.
Look, I'd defy anyone to show me one art that has it all. It's just not how arts have evolved, they don't work that way. I'd even challenge people to show me one art that contains more than two good elements. That's why we diversify, it's why the Gracie's ruled MMA for the first few years, and then why they got their asses handed to them for a few years after that. Diversification is vital, and it's why I can't stand schools or arts that tell you you can onu practice one art at a time.

 

I can agree with that Badger. As training clips they are good. As I mentioned I have been 'that guy' flopping around thinking 'okay, he is sitting on my chest I guess I will push him away with my hands...'

But to take someone starting out in your art and video them is not what The grappling community should be about...and my experience has been that isn't the sort of welcome you get.

 

this is the real revolution of mma, no? you have to have all kinds of skills. and it's not just mix hapkido and wing chun and i'm all a "mixed martial artist". specifically, it's functional arts that are mixed. wrestling and boxing, muay thai and bjj. that sort of thing.

 

I think the real revolution of MMA is that if you wish to use a certain technique or tactic in combat you have to be aware of the support skills that you'll need to back it up when fighting someone that is trying to close that choice down.
I've said for years that if TKD people want to use kicks in limited rules or "real" combat then they need to look at how Cro-cop used to fight and what he had to be able to do aswell as kicking people in the head.
The same goes for someone that wants to punch, throw, submit etc.
Nothing in combat exists in isolation.

 

The short answer is no. All styles have their strengths and weaknesses. Some teachers offer better tuition than others. Some students are more dedicated than others.

People's opinions on the internet don't count in the real world.

 

In my eyes TKD often looks good.

However, that bouncy around stuff looks less so. Maybe that is aimed at Olympic competition type stuff only? I was confused by that during the London games.

 

Can't say what I say in the Olympics looked good in any way what so ever. I hope that's not your only exposure to TKD.

 

Nope. I thought I said that in my post?

Mostly it looks ok. The Olympic stuff looked different.

 

Exactly.
The dilema is that in doing so, it changes the identity of TKD. Thats not something many are willing to do. Tkd guys who have done it for a long time and want it to still be TKD and keep all the TKD type techniques, training methods and identity. I dont think its possible to do.
The first step is changing your stance or start position to accomidate grappling and clinching,and add more boxing fundamentlas ,not only to defend but do it back aswell. This immediatly interfers with almost everything you are taught to do in TKD. The way you are taught to kick or strike in TKD now does not fit as well.

Like I said, this does not mean TKD is a poor style. Its just logic.

The same would be the case for boxing, it it wanted to add grappling, or wrestling if it wanted to add striking. Both would need a change of stance to begin with, which would interfere with the way everything else is done.

 

I think Badger makes a valid point regarding boxing and Taekwondo. Personally, I feel both styles have excellent footwork and techniques that most MMA practicioners could use in their arsenal.

The spinning back kick, spinning heel kick, high roundhouse, flexibility, and speed you acquire through Taekwondo is valid in MMA fighting. It's just a matter of adjusting one's style to accomadate a broader ruleset. It's common sense that a side stance is terrible in any ruleset that allows leg kicks. Taekwondo doesn't allow leg kicks, which is one of the reasons a side stance is used so often.

I think most of you would agree with me in saying that there's nothing wrong with some of Taekwondo's techniques. They can be used for knockouts (mostly high risk-high reward stuff, but valuable nonetheless), they just need to be applied differently than they would be in the olympics.

 

Sorry, but I disagree with this. Firstly, TKD guys have not done it for a long time - what they actually do, is try to pit "TKD Rules" sparring against "Other Rules" namely MMA or Thai and whilst sometimes its okay, other times it doesnt work/mix. Point is, they havnt changed anything!

Secondly, you can focus on what many folk consider "less TKD" elements (I`d argue that point with you as you know, but we have done it already, so won't) - but what I`m saying is by being a bit more "modern" (for want of a better word), it doesnt take its idendity away,, the two can co-exsist.

Below is a standard TKD grading at our club - I`m not posting so you can pull it apart, as I know it contains many elements you don't like.. but it also includes 'traditional Sparring' and some other bits considered 'not usual TKD' (though they are to us) and I would say it stands up pretty well :

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cViprkbLB8"]Taekwon-do 1st Dan Black Belt Grading, November 2012 - YouTube[/ame]


As a point incase, one of my BB's just left the club to pursue MMA... hes only done the ground work sections so far, but the guys he trained with were impressed and surprised at his TKD Only background!

Stuart