Is systema just a taiji rip off?

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by stevieb8006, Jun 24, 2013.

  1. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    There are always means of pressure testing when you begin utilizing alive training methods.
     
  2. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    That's the big quandary isn't it. How do you learn and teach something that isn't based on personal reproducible experience? Not only do many people not have any experience at being attacked with a knife. But each experience is going to be radically different from the last one. So the lessons from one may not carry over in a different situation.

    That said, it's possible to approximate in various ways. If we know that any contact with a knife is potentially very damaging, then it's still instructive to practice avoiding contact with the stand-in "knife."
     
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I do have personal experience - well one incident really - in this and my training was pretty much what made it work (a small contribution was made by the idiocy of the guy with the knife)

    If your training is honest enough a pressure tested enough you will be as close as you can get - same with punching, kicking and grappling. The difference with knife defense is that the chances of successfully defeating a committed knife attack are still slim even with training

    "Die Less Often" is more than just a marketing tagline - it's an honest assessment
     
  4. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    I always like to ask some instructor the following question.

    Dear instructor! In the

    - 1st hour, you teach how to use kinfe to deal with open hand.
    - 2nd hour, you teach how to use open hand to deal with knife.

    What if I just use the technique that taught me in the 2nd hour to deal with the technique that you taught in the 1st hour?

    It's like the ancient spear and shield parodox - What will happen when the sharpest spear meets the strongest shield?

    http://imageshack.us/a/img607/5666/spearshield.jpg

    http://imageshack.us/a/img826/5230/spearshield1.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2013
  5. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Therefore, can it truly be stated that "ALL" of the methods used in Systema or Krav Maga are "worthless"?

    And, how can students of these systems (as well as a few others) accurately pressure test their knife defense methods especially not knowing what to look for?
     
  6. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    On the knife issue - I agree with a lot of what has already been said. As far as knife experience goes - you also have to ask what kind of experience. For example, my knife experience was mostly around the time I was in my teens / early 20s and was almost exclusively Stanley knives or screwdrivers. That experience is very different from a friend who grew up in Malaysia. That is different again from two of my students who served in the Falklands, which is probably more in line with the experience of my Russian teachers

    The next thing is - how does your knife defence relate to your environment and the likely types of attack you will face?

    As far as judging knife training methods go, you also have to put things into context. There are many attribute and tactical drills that only address an aspect or two of the overall picture. For example, we have a drill where in a room full of people only one or two have a knife. Everyone walks around and tries to spot the knife before it is deployed, or deal with it quickly when it is. Picture that as a Youtube clip - a load of blokes walking round a room, not very exciting. However it is a very useful drill

    As to what works and what doesn't....does kicking a knife out of the attackers hand work? Surely not - yet a lad did that to a mugger, prior to any training (it was one of the things that prompted him to start) Was he lucky? Certainly! Would I teach kicking a knife out of a hand as a first-line defence? No - but you have to acknowledge the possibility and weigh it against the probability

    Pressure testing is important, but out of necessity there has to be a compromise somewhere along the way. My only answer to a committed knife attack is, if escape is not feasible, is to inflict as much damage as quickly as possible and hope for the best - there are no easy answers. The methods I've seen and experience in Systema address a lot of issues around the knife, importantly they are also the same principles, though different tactics, that are used in other situations. I think integrated training is important whatever you do, otherwise it's like trying to run three operating systems at once on your PC
     
  7. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    It makes sense to learn offense first before learning defense (for example, how to mug people with your kniife). This way you know exactly where your opponent may come from.

    If you train

    - iron palm, you will always hit others.
    - iron vest, you will always be hit by others.

    When I train joint locking, I

    - don't like to train, what should I do if you hold me like this?
    - like to train, What should I do if I hold you like this and you react?
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2013
  8. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    Does he, where is that?
     
  9. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    My first experience was with a UK rep and was less than positive. I put it down to personality issues, luckily I got the chance to train with Vladimir direct shortly after
     
  10. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    FWIR it was about different ways of striking from that position
     
  11. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    A range of things, in self defence specifically situations from road rage to assault/mugging, some resolved with words some not. Outside of that regular door / security work and I believe there are a couple of LEO's training with our Leicester group

    If any of the guys are interested in competition I'd be happy to. Some have previous comp experience, a couple have gone in for things, one of our guys travelling did some Thai. It's not really the main thrust of what I do, I think Val Riazanov has more of a competition background and is working in MMA

    I'm not in the least desperate, just that's always the policy I've had when teaching and also when inviting the Russian guys over. Done properly it can be a good positive experience for everyone involved. I've met some good people through it


    Yes, he trained with me for quite a few years
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2013
  12. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    A quick Youtube seach reveals a number of videos / documentaries concerning Spetsnaz hand to hand training, including Systema
     
  13. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Sorry I should explain, that was a joke based on people who wear tapout t shirts, Hanibal is well known on here for liking the brand despite its connotations.
     
  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    This guy?

    http://valriazanov.com/

    ''Val Riazanov was born in 1970 in Soviet Union and from 1979 trained in Judo and Sambo as a member of the Russian Olympic squad for 6 years. During that time Val competed in numerous competitions and championships, and achieved the status “Master” on the International level in Sambo, and the rank of black belt 6th Dan in Judo.

    Val Riazanov was an active member of the Russian KGB Special Forces !

    In 1987, Val joined the army as part of his compulsory military service, and after initial training was selected to join Russias Special Forces and later the KGB Special Operation Unit, where he was involved in numerous covert operations. Eventually Val, became a KGB trainer, training soldiers in hand to hand combat Sambo.

    After leaving the army Val moved to London and worked for 12 years as a Security Consultant for Government and private companies. During this time Val met, Michael Ryabko and became a qualified instructor and taught the Russian Martial Art known as Systema.''


    So Russian special forces, moves to London, and then becomes a systema guy?

    also here

    http://valriazanov.com/about-val-riazanov-russian-martial-arts-master/

    ''Val has also conducted several seminars in Holland, Ireland, in the Ukraine by special invitation from Ukrainian Government, Ireland and Russia. Along with training US Marine Corps at the US embassy in London along with competing in unlicensed boxing and free style fighting to become a heavy weight champion in Great Britain.''

    His youtube account is interesting, some obviously good sambo/judo mixed in with the usual strange systema approach.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2013
  15. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Really nice blog post -

    edited for ease of reading

    http://valriazanov.com/russian-martial-arts-systema-and-self-defense-blog/

    ''There is a popular descriptive used to distinguish Russian Systema from other martial arts, that goes like this:

    “We’re principle-based. We don’t believe in technique.”


    This is a classic example of something getting lost along the way in translation.
    ............................
    I see Systema practitioners practicing ground defence against people who couldn’t earn a white belt in BJJ, practicing kick defence against people who have trouble standing on one leg and working against “boxers” who are simply their chums wearing boxing gloves. There needs to be a little more concrete in the foundation in my opinion otherwise we’ll soon find ourselves posting fights with our drunken uncles on Youtube.

    Technique is not a bad word. There are best ways to throw a punch, specific nuances that should be known about locks and holds, tactics that work best against specific situations.
    ...............
    If you can’t move well, you can’t move well. If a padded fist rocks your world, a real one will be exponentially more shocking. If push-ups and basic fitness cause you to quit and if sparring scares you from the building, a street fight isn’t going to suddenly bring out your inner Ares. The fact is, if you aren’t training messy, fluid, continuous, non-stop resistance at some point, you are ultimately training technique and not principle; you are ultimately cognitively adhering to art and aesthetic, and creating something far more ritualized than any sport rather than building true adaptability and fighting skill.

    Original article by Kevin SECOURS

    ''
     
  16. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    And those specific techniques that I'm taking issue with, they worked? They resolved those situations by escaping mount that way and striking from under side control according to your methods?

    Look, I'm not trying to crap all over you in general. From your YouTube channel you seem to go live quite a lot and that makes up for a multitude of sins.

    But grappling is not some kind of free-form personal expression, specific things work and do not work. The things you can be seen teaching, like punching from inferior positions and the escapes you are showing, they don't work. You need to get real grapplers to show you how to do stuff, you can't intuit them from principles unless you fancy recapitulating several hundred years of technical development starting from zero.
     
  17. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Like this one -

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HMisWlxth0"]Soviet Russian Army- Hand to hand combat training Part 1 - YouTube[/ame]

    which looks very unsystema like?

    As a professional systema instructor could clarify what is the official systema line on its links to the russian special forces?

    1) Was it once used by some individuals who were in a unit?
    2) Was it once used by some units on an official level?
    3) was it once used by all units on an official level?
    4) Is it currently used by some individuals who are in a unit?
    5) Is it currently used by some units on an official level?
    6) Is it currently used by all units on an official level?
     
  18. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    There is zero documented proof that the Systema currently taught in the West has ever been used as the official hand to hand combat training methodology for the Spetznaz.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2013
  19. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    16.27 - Systema Kadochnikov

    My understanding is 1, 2 ,4 and 5

    Not all units - for example I was on a Vityaz base a few years back, they are taught basic HtH as it is not really part of their operations.
    Also there is no "official systema" line, there are several groups / instructors, it's become something of a generic term
     
  20. RobP

    RobP Valued Member


    Go Warrior documentary - a bit cheesy

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdwixkJqG_Q&list=PL254E380370EDAE36"]systema_d1 - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HMisWlxth0"]Soviet Russian Army- Hand to hand combat training Part 1 - YouTube[/ame]


    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WClu2emnHbQ"]Voennoe Delo: SPETSNAΖ Hand to Hand Combat Training! (English subtitles) - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAKyh480Fc4"]Alexander Kisten, Legend of Spetsnaz Combat Sambo Systema - YouTube[/ame]
     

Share This Page