Hi all, Just a quick question, what exactly is Soo Bahk Do? I have looked a bit on the net and i am very confused Is it just another name for Tang So DO? Or is it like TKD? If so what is the difference between the two styles? Cheers
Soo Bahk Do was one of the original Korean arts, established well before Taekwon-Do or Tang Soo Do. From what I know, Tang Soo Do was founded by 5 of the original SBD members and broke from SBD.. here is some stuff I have on it; Newletter Publications 1960-1961 The history of the Moo Duk Kwan is as unique as the art itself. Founded in Korea in 1945 by Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee, Moo Duk Kwan literally means institute of martial virtue Creating the art was not a simple process; it would be many years between our Founder’s first exposure to martial arts and the actual birth of the Moo Duk Kwan. In 1921, around age seven, Kwan Jang Nim Kee first witnessed the execution of a martial art. While attending the national May festival, he encountered a group of seven or eight men fighting one man, who successfully managed to evade and defeat his attackers. Impressed by the man’s performance, he followed him home and after observing his training over a period of time, asked to be taught the techniques he witnessed. The man refused because of his young age. However, this did not end the Kwan Jang Nim’s interest, he continued to observe the man training from afar, and imitated what he saw. After graduating high school in 1935, the Kwan Jang Nim began work for the railroad in Manchuria. The next year, he was introduced to a Chinese master, Master Yang. At that point, our Founder was strictly self-taught, and hoped this introduction would provide an opening for formal training. The Kwan Jang Nim asked to become Master Yang’s student, and after persisting in his request, was granted permission to train under him. A year later, he returned to Korea, and hoped to have the opportunity to continue training and possibly teach. Unfortunately, the country was occupied by the Japanese, and he was not allowed to pursue his interest in the martial arts. In 1939, he began work for the Cho Sun Railway Bureau. This position allowed him access to a library where he began reading about philosophy and Okinawan Karate. For the next several years he traveled and studied developing his maturity as a martial artist. At the conclusion of World War II, his dream of dedicating himself solely to martial arts was realized when he created the Moo Duk Kwan on Nov. 9, 1945. The Moo Duk Kwan is one of five original key styles of martial arts in Korea. The Kwan Jang Nim first named his martial art Hwa Soo Do, art of the flower hand. He attracted and lost several classes of students within the first year due to lack of public recognition. In 1947, he reevaluated the future of the Moo Duk Kwan after realizing the strength of Japanese influence on Korean culture. He decided to integrate the art of Tang Soo Do into the Hwa Soo Do discipline as it was a recognizable term to the general public. Before the beginning of the Korean War in 1950, the first four Dan students were recognized. This was the beginning of the Dan Bon system which is unique to Moo Duk Kwan practitioners. Although the Korean War caused many difficulties, the art endured and strengthened, allowing the Kwan Jang Nim to continue his scientific development of a unique system of techniques emphasizing use of the hip In 1957, the Kwan Jang Nim made a significant discovery--a book, titled, Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji. This volume discussed “Soo Bahk,” a truly Korean martial art. As a result of this discovery, he diligently devoted himself to studying this manual. Through his efforts, Soo Bahk was reborn, and the Kwan Jang Nim developed the Soo Bahk system to be studied through the Moo Duk Kwan as a living art, connecting practitioners with a long and proud heritage. He chose the name Soo Bahk Do, a derivative of Soo Bahk Ki, hand striking technique, and Soo Bahk Hee, hand striking dance, which were detailed in the Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji. Do was chosen based on his belief that Soo Bahk should teach the Moo Do philosophy of stopping inner and outer conflict In 1960, the Korean Soo Bahk Do Association was incorporated and officially registered with the Korean government as the traditional Korean martial art. The following year, the Moo Duk Kwan discipline was recognized internationally for the first time. This was a golden time for the Moo Duk Kwan, for it was receiving respect and recognition from the general public nationally, and was making significant progress toward the Kwan Jang Nim’s goal of improving human relationships through the martial arts at an international level. The Moo Duk Kwan in Korea published 8 consecutive newsletters form September, 1960 - April 1961. The newsletters indicate the strength and organization of the Moo Duk Kwan just prior to the military Coup
You might want to check the Tang Soo Do Forum, or PM the member here called EternalRage. He's really knowledgable on this stuff.
It's more close to Tang Soo Do I thought. Which was born out of Taekyen. Taekwon-Do was born out of Shotokan Karate.
I believe the main influences on Tang Soo Do were Northern Chuan Fa and, again, Karate. Hwang Kee said he studied a guy who knew Tae Kyon when he was a kid though so there might be a link there.
The only confirmable influence on TSD was Karate, and it is still debated whether it was Okinawan or Japanese, but from the order of the Pyung Ahns in TSD it is most likely Japanese. The Northern Chuan Fa and the TaeKyon are hard to confirm because it is 1.) a verbal history from GM Hwang Kee (not saying it is false or implying that he is a liar by any means, just stating that they don't have things like certificates to back it up), 2.) hard to differentiate the taekyon of that time and SBD, since both have kicking and taekyon has changed so much its hard to tell what it was like back then. There is also a debated link between GM Hwang Kee and Won Kuk Lee, founder of the Chung Do Kwan. There is a photograph of GM Hwang Kee training with WKL, while wearing a white belt. Some think he was an actual student of WKL, the counterargument is that he wore the white out of respect because he was visiting another school/system.
It sums up the history of SBD. Split I think is asking for more differences other than the history. Soo Bahk Do is the name that GM Hwang Kee, founder of the Moo Duk Kwan, gave to his system after his intensive study of the Moo Ye Dobo Tong Ji. Renamed in June 30, 1960, it was supposed to reflect the added traditional material, his own interpretation of Korea's oldest military classic. The difference between SBD and TSD depends on the particular TSD organization. Whenever the founder of each organization left the original Moo Duk Kwan has a direct effect on what they practice in comparison to SBD. Also each organization founder's personal preference on what to do with GM Hwang Kee's additional material (assuming they stayed long enough with the original Moo Duk Kwan to learn it) plays a part as well. Soo Bahk Do, aside from its original Tang Soo Do curriculum (the Japanese/Okinawan karate forms, the one steps, the self defenses, the kicking, the traditional karate movements, etc etc) has an additional set of the above (more or less) based on GM Hwang Kee's interpretations of the Muye Dobo Tong Ji. The forms are the backbone of it, including the Chil Sung and Yuk Ro form sets and also Hwa Sun. Some TSD organization founders, when still with the original Moo Duk Kwan, learned these things and either kept them in some fashion or discarded them when forming their own associations. It all depends. The comparison gets even trickier with TKD, since you have different kinds of TKD. But most will not have Hwang Kee's interpretations of the Muye Dobo Dong Ji, on top of the obvious differences with most TKD and TSD.
So Soo Bahk Do, Tang So Do, and Taekwon-Do each have their own tournaments/rules? Or do they ever fight together in the same tournaments?
At open tournaments, they do, if they choose to attend. In my experience, the Soo Bahk Do and Tang Soo Do people can be a little insular, preferring to participate in their own events. Not necessarily a bad thing though... Open tournaments can be off-putting when the judges don't know your forms or when the sparring rules favor a style of competing you don't practice normally.
There are 3 major types of TKD: 1- ITF 2- WTF & 3- Independents Of course ITF is Chang Hon TKD & WTF is Kukki TKD. But Tae Kwon Do was a label applied to Korean martial arts post 1954, 1st by the Military TKD, which would become the Oh Do Kwan & later form the ITF. These were all led by Gen. Choi Hong Hi. Other labels used was the popular Tang Soo Do, most likely conceived by the Chung Do Kwan founder GM Lee Won-Kuk. He military also used this label early on. GM Hwang Ki founder of the Moo D Kwan also embraced this name & has become closely associated with it. He 1st used Hwa Soo Do & finally settled on Soo Bak Do. Others used the Kong Soo Do label. All of these KMAs share many things in common & they also have many aspects that make them distinct MAs. WTF TKD, through their unique tournament rules, moved away from the karate roots, as their rule set required innovation that resulted in quick kicking, fast counters & a speedy footwork unseen in the MAs. Many think this is the traditional TKD (Dr. S. Capener). ITF TKD moved from the same karate roots by their new forms, which were basically rearranged karate katas moves, as are the Taeguek Poomsae & older Plagwe form set of the WTF, but the ITF Tuls used the unique SW movement. Of course the independents may or may not have more away from the karate roots differently. GM Hwang Ki emphasized creating some forms from the Kwon Bup (fist method) from an old book of military tactics. If anyone actually saw the book, they will see how much of a stretch it is. But Korean national pride won out!
Soo Bahk was an older Korean martial art, Soo Bahk Do is a more modern art, originally called Tang Soo Do, but renamed by Moo Duk Kwan Founder and Grandmaster Hwang, Kee. At first glance, it looks identical to Tang Soo Do but with the addition of a few new forms created by GM Hwang, Kee. (I did SBD for about a year or so after I had earned my 2nd Dan in TSD). TSD itself is essentially a Korean version of Japanese Shotokan.
The top statement is simply not correct. The TKD name surfaced in 1955 & was used continuously by Gen. Choi & the Military TKD. While Su Bak Hi existed in a time long ago, it only surfaced as Su Bak DO after GM Hwang Ki discovered the book in 1957. But he did not establish the Su Bak Do Assoc. until 1960. On Sept. 3, 1959 he merged with the other 5 Early Kwans under Gen. Choi's leadership as president of the Korean Taekwon-Do Association. Of course his cooperation was north lived & he left eventually forming the Su Bak Do Association in 1960.
